Nope.
Posts by Jeffro
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23
Aussies closed all the coal power plants...now we have blackouts no electricity!
by Witness 007 inso we have been "green" blowing up all our coal power plants now they are saying we are like north korea...expect regular power blackouts.
who is running this show?.
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540
Simple Question Re 1914
by Slidin Fast inwt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!
and the end times.
a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?
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Jeffro
Disillusioned JW:
I realize that someone before Porphyry might have said that f'irst person to introduce the idea that Daniel was not a work of the 6th century but was written much later in the time of the Seleucids in the 2nd century', but Porphyry is the earliest known person to mention that claim.
It may be the case that Porphyry is the earliest known extant source (or possibly just the most well known early source) for recognising the time Daniel was actually written, but that fact is less important than 'scholar' tries to make out. 'scholar' attempted the fallacious argument that Porphyry is invalidated because he was a 'critic of Christianity'. Outside of pandering to religious superstitions, texts that identify specific events that actually happened (such as references in Daniel that are widely acknowledged to refer to specific events in the Seleucid period) are routinely recognised as being written after the events. It is fallacious to pretend that 'maybe it really is prophecy' when there is actually no evidence to believe that such is even possible let alone likely.
But the Roman kingdom was in existence prior to 180 B.C.E. Not only that, but Rome defeated Antiochus III the Great (the Seleucid king) in the Roman–Seleucid War of 192 B.C.E. – 188 B.C.E. Furthermore, Antiochus III was the father of Antiochus IV Epiphanes!
I had responded to your earlier suggestion that "the Roman Empire and its dissolution seem to well fit the Daniel chapter 2". The fact that Rome existed prior to the writing of Daniel does not justify that claim.
I even think it is possible that the biblical prophets might have used a meditative practice which enhanced the power of their subconscious mind to detect patterns world events, and then present the conclusions to heir conscious mind - even in visions. Because I think such might be possible I have even tried do such myself.
Sometimes people imagine things, and sometimes things they imagine might even turn out to be correct to varying degrees. Some people are futurists as a profession. It isn't evidence of anything 'mystical', and whilst introspection might help people to focus their thoughts, it isn't some 'special subconscious awareness of the universe'.
Even if only two verses in Daniel specifically say they are about a future kingdom of God, that doesn't mean the story they are about isn't also about a proclaimed future kingdom of God.
Most of the parts of Daniel that mention God's kingdom (or sovereignty) at all express that God is sovereign without any need for it to be 'established' in the future. 'scholar' echoes the Watch Tower Society's claim that "Time and again, the Bible book of Daniel develops a central theme. It keeps pointing forward to the establishment of God’s Kingdom under the rulership of his Son, Jesus." (The Watchtower, 1 October 2014, page 11). That claim is expressly false, not only because of the obvious fact that Daniel never mentions Jesus, but also because Daniel does not 'keep pointing' to a future establishment of God's kingdom. The two verses of Daniel (2:44 and 7:14) that refer to a future kingdom are from paired sections of the chiastic structure of chapters 2 to 7, and it would be surprising if that idea was not expressed twice in that structure. But it is not the book's 'main theme'.
I tried to see if there were Jewish commentaries which say such, but Jewish commentaries are far less numerous in the USA than Christian commentaries are.
Jews consider Daniel to be part of the Writings, not the Prophets, which explains why they are less concerned about providing esoteric interpretations, especially involving 'our day'. The fact that there are relatively few Jewish analyses of Daniel is actually another clue that Jews closer to the time, just as now, did not consider its content 'prophetic'.
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540
Simple Question Re 1914
by Slidin Fast inwt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!
and the end times.
a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?
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Jeffro
Disillusioned JW:
Page 747 of the book says something which scholar would likely appreciate. There the book says the following. "The principle idea of the book is the ultimate triumph of the kingdom of God
It isn’t particularly surprising that a (quite dated) Christian commentary provides a Christian interpretation that agrees with other Christian interpretations of Daniel (noting that not all Christian denominations ascribe the significance of Daniel to ‘our day’). Daniel was not written by or for Christians. Rather, Christians reinterpreted the text to fit their own beliefs. To the extent that Daniel is about ‘triumph of God’s kingdom’, it is still in relation to what the Jews expected to happen shortly after the rededication of the temple in 165 BCE, and nothing to do with ‘our day’. But it remains the case that only two verses of Daniel actually refer to a future kingdom of God.
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540
Simple Question Re 1914
by Slidin Fast inwt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!
and the end times.
a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?
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Jeffro
(Last reply was in a hurry. More accurately, the legs and feet in Daniel chapter 2 refer to the Macedonian and Seleucid periods.)
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540
Simple Question Re 1914
by Slidin Fast inwt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!
and the end times.
a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?
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Jeffro
Disillusioned JW:
The only reservation I have about those words is that the Roman Empire and its dissolution seem to well fit the Daniel chapter 2 in regards to the description of the iron legs and of feet of the image.
People like to retrofit any number of things that ‘seem to well fit’ vague writings, including to the present, but it is an established fact that Daniel was definitely written prior to the Roman period, and there is no basis for deferring to magical thinking. The ‘iron legs’ definitely refer actually to the Seleucid period.
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540
Simple Question Re 1914
by Slidin Fast inwt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!
and the end times.
a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?
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Jeffro
Disillusioned JW:
scholar is correct in saying that 'Porphyry was the first person to introduce the idea that Daniel was not a work of the 6th century but was written much later in the time of the Seleucids in the 2nd century".
Actually, he’s quite incorrect. Porphyry is a known early source for considering interpretations of Daniel by Christians, but not ‘the first person to introduce the idea’. Obviously the original author of the work knew when the work was first written, along with any number of other Jewish sources that may now be lost.
No sources prior to the mid-second century BCE reference Daniel (no, not even Ezekiel, who actually refers to the Ugaritic Danel among two other ancient non-Jews) and it was introduced later than the closure of the ‘Prophets’. Proponents of an earlier writing of Daniel must appeal to magical thinking to ‘explain’ the obvious reference to the Seleucid period.
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540
Simple Question Re 1914
by Slidin Fast inwt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!
and the end times.
a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?
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Jeffro
🤷♂️🤦♂️
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540
Simple Question Re 1914
by Slidin Fast inwt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!
and the end times.
a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?
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Jeffro
Fisherman:
A lot of criticism but scholar’s commentary stand up.
Haha. Stand-up comedy maybe. And even then, not good. I mean, stuff like this:
WT publications since 1958 have always maintained that a small section of Daniel namely ch.11 describes the Seleucid Period as history by means of prophecy.
Who else but the Watch Tower Society could say they’ve ‘always’ been consistent about something for the period that they’ve said that thing. Amazing! 🤦♂️ But in that time they’ve changed their interpretation of verses 17-19 (which they now concede to also relate to the Seleucid period), 25-26 and 40-45. -
540
Simple Question Re 1914
by Slidin Fast inwt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!
and the end times.
a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?
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Jeffro
Phizzy:
SCHOLAR DID ! against the excellent jeffro of course.
He more than likely did (his repetitive retorts are like white noise after a while). But he also made an ad hominem attack against Porphyry (3rd century CE), dismissing him as a ‘critic of Christians’ as if that has any bearing on whatever he might otherwise say about the actual subject matter. Worse still, ‘scholar’ insists that my position is based on the views of Porphyry, who I have actually never referenced, mentioned, or even considered regarding Daniel or anything related to JW beliefs. That is to say, ‘scholar’ was initially ignorant at best the first time he made the claim about my position, and a bald faced liar after the first time I told him I didn’t reference Porphyry.
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540
Simple Question Re 1914
by Slidin Fast inwt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!
and the end times.
a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?
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Jeffro
🤦♂️ I’m done with your idiocy for now