Posts by Jeffro

21

King of the North

by pontoon in

i've been out for 13 years.

just wondering who the society is identifying as the king of the north?.

Jeffro

Indoubtbigtime

King of the North is Russia and allies, primarily China, but all the brics nations. (Brazil Russia India China and South Africa

In JW doctrine, the "king of the north" is usually only Russia (but also described as Russia and its allies in a 2020 Watchtower article), but Russia and its allies (but sometimes suggested as being all nations) are 'Gog of Magog'. See also Daniel's dreams and visions (Appendix 2), Pure Worship—Ezekiel revisited (Chapter 17).

Back in reality, the "king of the north" was the dynasty of Seleucid kings up until Antiochus IV. See Daniel's dreams and visions (Chapter 11).

'Gog of Magog', entirely unrelated to the "king of the north", was a hypothetical ruler from the far north of Israel who would purportedly lead an attack against Israel some time after the fall of Babylon. See also What Does the Bible Really Teach… about Gog of Magog? (PDF).

21

King of the North

by pontoon in

i've been out for 13 years.

just wondering who the society is identifying as the king of the north?.

Jeffro

Indoubtbigtime:

Ukraine is definitely part of king of the south even if they don’t officially join NATO

Really? Ukraine is part of Ptolemaic Egypt during the 4th to 2nd centuries BCE? 🤦‍♂️ Seems considerably unlikely.

169

Are the statistics out yet?

by slimboyfat in

isn’t it about time they released the report for the service year?

or have they stopped publishing it?

did they released selected figures at the annual meeting as they usually do, such as the memorial attendance or record number of pioneers?

Jeffro

The changes in the numbers of congregations for Mozambique (238 added) and Nigeria (496 fewer) are not consistent with the changes in the number of 'publishers'.

Mozambique did report a 7% increase, which was 4,887 new publishers since the previous year, which might initially seem to straightforwardly explain the increase in the number of congregations. However, this would average out to the new congregations having only 35 publishers each, though the average number of publishers per congregation in Mozambique is 48. So it appears that there are a significant number of considerably smaller groups that are being classified as separate congregations.

Conversely, Nigeria reported an 8% increase, with 27,268 additional publishers which isn't directly consistent with a reduction in the number of congregations (and certainly not such a significant drop), so it seems that many congregations have been merged there, perhaps combining previously small groups. It may also be that people have had to move away from parts of the country where there is significant opposition to Christianity generally.

In both cases, it is possible that at least some of the reported increases in publishers is partially due to people without reliable Internet access not being able to report activity for alternative preaching during the pandemic.

There could be something else going on regarding the congregation numbers in these two countries too, such as being in different phases of ~~real estate~~ Kingdom Hall building vs. selling?

169

Are the statistics out yet?

by slimboyfat in

isn’t it about time they released the report for the service year?

or have they stopped publishing it?

did they released selected figures at the annual meeting as they usually do, such as the memorial attendance or record number of pioneers?

Jeffro

Nigeria was inadvertently left off the list of new congregations I posted previously.

Nigeria lost 496 congregations.

169

Are the statistics out yet?

by slimboyfat in

isn’t it about time they released the report for the service year?

or have they stopped publishing it?

did they released selected figures at the annual meeting as they usually do, such as the memorial attendance or record number of pioneers?

Jeffro

Phizzy:

Do they still list the number of Congregations by Country ?

Yes. Many have reduced significantly since last year.

Country	New Congregations
United States	-123
Côte d’Ivoire	-79
South Africa	-72
France	-69
Japan	-66
Ukraine	-60
Zimbabwe	-58
Mexico	-57
Spain	-56
Germany	-53
Congo, Dem. Republic of	-47
Peru	-38
Colombia	-35
Indonesia	-34
Cameroon	-31
Kenya	-28
Madagascar	-26
Kazakhstan	-25
33 Other Lands	-24
Tanzania	-24
Venezuela	-20
Fiji	-20
Paraguay	-18
Canada	-16
Argentina	-15
Italy	-13
Lesotho	-11
Myanmar	-10
Australia	-9
Korea, Republic of	-9
El Salvador	-8
Dominican Republic	-7
Panama	-7
Ethiopia	-6
Honduras	-5
Guatemala	-5
Switzerland	-5
Vanuatu	-4
Guyana	-4
Albania	-4
Eswatini	-4
Senegal	-4
Norway	-3
Finland	-3
Lithuania	-3
Austria	-3
Sri Lanka	-3
Papua New Guinea	-2
Cuba	-2
Mayotte	-2
Puerto Rico	-2
Greece	-2
Brazil	-2
Malaysia	-2
Taiwan	-2
Belgium	-2
Botswana	-2
Trinidad & Tobago	-2
Kiribati	-1
Sudan	-1
Cambodia	-1
French Guiana	-1
Serbia	-1
Namibia	-1
Solomon Islands	-1
Moldova	-1
Latvia	-1
Slovenia	-1
Ecuador	-1
Luxembourg	-1
Armenia	-1
Costa Rica	-1
Réunion	-1
Hungary	-1
Burkina Faso	-1
New Zealand	-1
Mali	-1
Cyprus	-1
Kosrae	0
Tuvalu	0
Chuuk	0
American Samoa	0
St. Barthélemy	0
Palau	0
Greenland	0
Turks and Caicos	0
Virgin Islands, British	0
Haiti	0
Pohnpei	0
Bosnia and Herzegovina	0
Bermuda	0
Guam	0
Mongolia	0
Kyrgyzstan	0
Equatorial Guinea	0
Samoa	0
Montserrat	0
Guinea-Bissau	0
Virgin Islands, U.S.	0
São Tomé and Príncipe	0
Macao	0
St. Vincent & the Grenadines	0
Uruguay	0
Kosovo	0
Hong Kong	0
Croatia	0
Dominica	0
Barbados	0
Curaçao	0
Belize	0
Belarus	0
Andorra	0
Jamaica	0
Azores	0
St. Kitts	0
North Macedonia	0
Cayman Islands	0
Aruba	0
St. Martin	0
Bolivia	0
Seychelles	0
San Marino	0
Bahamas	0
Saipan	0
Cape Verde	0
Denmark	0
Tahiti	0
Martinique	0
Grenada	0
Gabon	0
Yap	0
Tinian	0
St. Eustatius	0
Nevis	0
Niue	0
Wallis & Futuna Islands	0
Slovakia	0
Chile	0
Estonia	0
Cook Islands	0
Guadeloupe	0
Czech Republic	0
St. Lucia	0
St. Maarten	0
Poland	0
Madeira	0
Guinea	0
Nepal	0
Israel	0
Antigua	0
Netherlands	0
Rodrigues	0
Montenegro	0
Timor-Leste	0
Marshall Islands	0
Bangladesh	0
Congo, Republic of	0
Faroe Islands	0
Iceland	0
Suriname	0
Gambia	0
Pakistan	0
Palestinian Territories	0
Bonaire	0
Mauritius	0
Malta	0
Central African Republic	0
Liechtenstein	0
St. Helena	0
Anguilla	0
South Sudan	0
Nauru	0
St. Pierre and Miquelon	0
Niger	0
Gibraltar	0
Falkland Islands	0
Sierra Leone	1
Chad	1
Romania	1
Sweden	1
Liberia	1
Ireland	1
Angola	1
Tonga	1
Nicaragua	2
New Caledonia	2
Thailand	2
Rota	2
Rwanda	2
Portugal	2
Bulgaria	2
Turkey	2
Britain	3
Azerbaijan	3
Saba	3
Uganda	4
Benin	4
Georgia	5
Philippines	7
Togo	7
Burundi	9
Zambia	10
Malawi	15
India	41
Ghana	57
Mozambique	238

169

Are the statistics out yet?

by slimboyfat in

isn’t it about time they released the report for the service year?

or have they stopped publishing it?

did they released selected figures at the annual meeting as they usually do, such as the memorial attendance or record number of pioneers?

Jeffro

In a country where the preaching work is restricted or under ban, you’d have to meet almost 11,000 people to possibly come across one JW.

The population of China skews this figure significantly so it’s not a particularly useful average. But it is a valid point in principle.

169

Are the statistics out yet?

by slimboyfat in

isn’t it about time they released the report for the service year?

or have they stopped publishing it?

did they released selected figures at the annual meeting as they usually do, such as the memorial attendance or record number of pioneers?

Jeffro

It is simply fallacious to say that datasets counting affiliation entirely differently can validly be directly compared. (Obviously, anyone can superficially compare any two things but it will give misleading results if the different metrics are not taken into account.) Not interested in watching the video. It is true that the number of congregations can give a helpful indication of growth/decline though.

169

Are the statistics out yet?

by slimboyfat in

isn’t it about time they released the report for the service year?

or have they stopped publishing it?

did they released selected figures at the annual meeting as they usually do, such as the memorial attendance or record number of pioneers?

Jeffro

slimboyfat:

It’s because you cast doubt on Watchtower figures

Still misrepresenting what I said. 🤦‍♂️ They use different metrics, counting only a subset of adherents. It doesn’t mean the figures from Watch Tower are ‘in doubt’. They just can’t be directly compared with datasets that count membership differently. I never said that secular measures of JWs can’t be compared with secular measures of other denominations. I never said other denominations aren’t losing more members.

169

Are the statistics out yet?

by slimboyfat in

isn’t it about time they released the report for the service year?

or have they stopped publishing it?

did they released selected figures at the annual meeting as they usually do, such as the memorial attendance or record number of pioneers?

Jeffro

Sigh. 🤦‍♂️ When you said “The JW numbers look “bad”… until etc”, no one had mentioned secular stats. The subject was the stats as published by JWs. Comparing the stats published by the Watch Tower Society with other measures is ‘apples and oranges’, quite independent from your obsession with the separate fact that other denominations are in greater decline generally (shifting the goalposts). At no point did I ‘deny’ anything. (At least you managed not to lie about what I had responded to this time though unlike your false attribution on page 6.)

I have already demonstrated that the way JWs count membership inflates their stated growth rate, which in any case has been especially poor for 2022, particularly given the pressure to remain.

Also, the type of ‘growth’ JWs have in most secular countries based on secular measures is like having an interest rate on savings that doesn’t keep up with inflation.

169

Are the statistics out yet?

by slimboyfat in

isn’t it about time they released the report for the service year?

or have they stopped publishing it?

did they released selected figures at the annual meeting as they usually do, such as the memorial attendance or record number of pioneers?

Jeffro

slimboyfat:

Jeffro you seem to have two basic responses to JW growth.

You really are getting tedious.

The first is to deny that it exists and say the Watchtower data are wrong.

No. I didn't say that at all. I said, correctly, that the way JWs count 'publishers' increases their stated growth rate at the expense of higher membership figures.

The second is to say that even if the data are correct (the Australian census, for example) it doesn’t count because: disfellowshipping

I didn't say anything 'doesn't count'. I said, correctly, that growth of JW membership in countries specifically considered has been under the population growth. I also said, correctly, that people of other denominations are more free to leave without repercussions whereas there is significantly more pressure for JWs to remain affiliated. And I also said, correctly, that although some other small denominations such as Christadelphians use the similar term 'disfellowship' (for whom it means exclusion from 'breaking bread', which corresponds to 'communion'), they do not actually employ shunning (ergo a false equivalence on your part) for simply ceasing membership (rather than for other specific ‘serious sins’).

and North Korea.

If you don't understand analogies, that's a 'you' problem. 🤷‍♂️

If you believe that Watchtower growth doesn’t count then why are you interested in tracking it anyway? If you can dismiss all favourable comparisons of JW growth with others groups as either factually wrong, or inconsequential if true, then there is no way the data can ever contradict your starting assumptions.

Strawman argument.