some time ago, i had a discussion with a college, a creationist, who belived that everything was already known before it happened.
(predestination).. not many people believe that there is no freedom of choice.
it is also the wts doctrine.
One more thing LT, when you say: "regardless of which position you take regarding Predestination, all the events surrounding it would be deemed Foreordained"
...this would in philosophy be regarded as an extreme form of predestination (or really, true predestination). Hence, no real difference, philosophically.
i was driving in my brothers car with him about 5 years ago (hes now an elder), we were in the middle of a row when he turned to me and told me that when i die at armageddon that i dont need to worry because he said he will look after my kids, this upset me to the point that i made him stop the car and i got out.
a friend of mine (who is a jw) i spoke to about it told me that he was just trying to be cruel and then went on to tell me that any children who are a part of a witness family would die at armageddon.
i would like to know if anyone knows if this true ?
Adonijah: I never said that unethical things haven`t happened in other religions (and yes, also to children). But Jehovahs Witnesses are still one of the sect with the most discusting unethical perspective in the history of religion: The honestly BELIEVE (and they see NO ethical problems with it) that GOD is going to kill many millions of innocent children because their parents refuse to become JWs. And they even TELL their children that this is going to happen...there is no censorship to the eyes and ears of the children, they all participate on meetings from the day they are born! Even infants are brought to meetings! JW-kids that are intelligent and perceptive, are aware of the facts of Armageddon from an early age. This is even more unethical than in Islam, in which the children are also taught about Armageddon, although the paradise there is heavenly, not earthly: However, in Islam, it is not the pillar of the religion, and not emphasised as much as in JW. What we are discussing here, is the ethics of the basic teachings of the religion, not the actions taken by participants of the religion! And discussing it on these terms makes JWs perhaps one of the most unethical religions in the world!
(and the Kristallnacht had very little to do with religion, by the way...)
some time ago, i had a discussion with a college, a creationist, who belived that everything was already known before it happened.
(predestination).. not many people believe that there is no freedom of choice.
it is also the wts doctrine.
Ok LT, I think I get it. But the subject should then only be discussed in a philosophical manner, not in a Theological (if my english is unclear on some points, sorry, it`s my second language) - as this is a bit "on the side" of what I think the guy that started this thread, meant. Predestination doesn`t have to be discussed taking God into consideration at all, it can (and usually is) discussed in the sense of mere mechanics - cause and effect, and I think this was what was the intention of the thread in the first place. The theological discussion pretty much amounts to God being a)mean, or b)really mean...anyway.
i was driving in my brothers car with him about 5 years ago (hes now an elder), we were in the middle of a row when he turned to me and told me that when i die at armageddon that i dont need to worry because he said he will look after my kids, this upset me to the point that i made him stop the car and i got out.
a friend of mine (who is a jw) i spoke to about it told me that he was just trying to be cruel and then went on to tell me that any children who are a part of a witness family would die at armageddon.
i would like to know if anyone knows if this true ?
To assure you once and for all about the horrors of this sect, let me explain it like this: IF I could have had a choice, and let`s for arguments sake say that the JWs are right about Armageddon (of course they aren`t, this is just hypothetical): Knowing what I know now, with the psychological damage growing up in JWs has caused me, IF I could have chosen between being born into a normal non-JW-family, having a normal upbringing, and then to die in Armageddon, I would have preferred that to the alternative: An upbringing with an insane mother, obsessed about demons and Armageddon ("it`s right around the corner, it`s right around the corner I tell you, now go get dressed for the meeting!"), feeling different from the others at school, looking around at my classmates in class, thinking that "God is going to kill you all, cause your parents aren`t JWs"...fantasising vividly about how Armageddon is going to be like allready at the age of seven...
...yes, I sure would have preffered option nr.1.
some time ago, i had a discussion with a college, a creationist, who belived that everything was already known before it happened.
(predestination).. not many people believe that there is no freedom of choice.
it is also the wts doctrine.
This distinction between fore-ordination and predestination (personally, I don`t see the distinction) is an a) theological distinction only, at least as far as I know, and b) is not a subject much emphasised in philosophy. And c) no, it doesn`t help...
i was driving in my brothers car with him about 5 years ago (hes now an elder), we were in the middle of a row when he turned to me and told me that when i die at armageddon that i dont need to worry because he said he will look after my kids, this upset me to the point that i made him stop the car and i got out.
a friend of mine (who is a jw) i spoke to about it told me that he was just trying to be cruel and then went on to tell me that any children who are a part of a witness family would die at armageddon.
i would like to know if anyone knows if this true ?
Carlas interpretation is correct. Anyone who has heard of "the Truth", but still has not made any effort to "join the flock", will die in Armageddon with their children. So will the JWs that haven`t lived the way the religion teaches them to live, along with their children. This is the part about JWs teachings that is, by far, the most unethical. Why should an inocent child suffer for the actions of their parents? So much for the "all children come to me". Sickens me.
some time ago, i had a discussion with a college, a creationist, who belived that everything was already known before it happened.
(predestination).. not many people believe that there is no freedom of choice.
it is also the wts doctrine.
True, I hva never studied the subject, when I studied philosophy, I concentrated on the contradiction between free will and predestination. Yes, you distinguished between the two terms, but did nothing to really explain the distinction.
i was driving in my brothers car with him about 5 years ago (hes now an elder), we were in the middle of a row when he turned to me and told me that when i die at armageddon that i dont need to worry because he said he will look after my kids, this upset me to the point that i made him stop the car and i got out.
a friend of mine (who is a jw) i spoke to about it told me that he was just trying to be cruel and then went on to tell me that any children who are a part of a witness family would die at armageddon.
i would like to know if anyone knows if this true ?
When I grew up in that insane crap-religion, we were told that children were "riding on their parents ticket", like on a bus-ride, children under a certain age don`t pay... This meant that all children of people who refused to become JWs, although they had heard about the Truth, would be killed in Armageddon. The children of people that were JW, would be saved if their parents were saved (that their parents had lived in the right manner/followed the rules etc).
if you could ask someone who is about to be baptized a question to make him think, what would you ask?
thanks, carla
Make him/her read one of the books that have been written by ex-JWs before it`s to late. Once he/she is babtised and brainwashed enough, he/she will see all things like that like Satans propaganda, or anti-Truth propaganda written under the influence of Satan. I don`t know the names of any english/american books, as I am norwegian, but someone here must be able to help out. There was an excellent book written by an ex-elder in Norway, that came out about a year ago, called "Gud bor i Brooklyn" ("God lives in Brooklyn"), unfortunately it hasn`t been translated into english.
some time ago, i had a discussion with a college, a creationist, who belived that everything was already known before it happened.
(predestination).. not many people believe that there is no freedom of choice.
it is also the wts doctrine.
Which is? You have to be more detailed, not just throw out words like "fore-ordination" and not elaborate on it further, just tell someone to google something. What is C, and why?
