Posts by Hellrider

52

What happened between Jesus death & the gospels being written?

by yaddayadda in

hi, i'm interested in researching this subject.

can anyone recommend any good books that offer critical theories on the origins of early christianity, specifically the content and creation of the gospels.

for instance, how much of the gospels is underlying historical truth and how much might be exaggerations that crept in through, say 'chinese whispers' in the time between jesus death and the writing of the gospels ?

Hellrider

Any of the above would have been remarkable enough for chroniclers of the time to note

Is that absolutely certain? And if so, could there be other reasons why the writers didn`t mention it? What if:

- Jesus was an embarassment both to the roman authoroties of the area and also to the jews? There were no "historians" at this time, there were scribes, and they for an employer who wanted a particular product. If there were political (or religious-political) reasons for not mentioning him, then he would not be mentioned.

- And: Were any of these (alleged) events;

Did perform miracles

-Was rumored to perform miracles

-Was followed by large crowds of people

-Did enter Jerusalem on a donkey (an extremely provocative action for a Jew)

-Did declare himself the Messiah

-Did disrupt the business of the temple

-Was tried by the Sanhedrin on Passover Eve

-Was tried by Pontius Pilate

..in a shitty little province that was constantly annoying and of little importance to the romans, important enough to be mentioned by the writers? Remember, the roman empire was huge at this time in history. I think battles with the germanic tribes, conquest of northern Africa, of Britain, not to mention internal conflicts in Rome were more than important enough to the writers to focus on, rather than oh-no-yet-another-self-proclaimed-oh-what-do-they-call-it-again - "messiah" in Palestine. There was no uprising. If the story is accurate, there were just a lot of people demanding his death and a few yelling for his release. No romans were killed, no jews even, except for one of those self-proclaimed Messiahs. And hence, why bother write anything about it.

67

Oh MAN are they ever annoyed in Brooklyn!

by MinisterAmos in

i called the information dept politely asking if mr brown was still a witness after commiting verbal apostasy during the interview with ldh.. i got transferred to one of their legal staff and he dropped the "f" bomb and hung up!

i on the other hand was a complete gentleman.. i would call this a golden opportunity to play up what has to be one of the most embarrasing moments for the dub leadership but is actually an important issue that any current dubz should be concerned about.

what is the actual policy of the org?

Hellrider

Just a question: This verbal apostasy of that guy, is it common knowledge among the jws (r&f)? Do they talk about it at the KHs?

19

"Oh that I should have to go thru this..."

by Hellrider in

when my mother was on her deathbed, she mumbled these words: "oh, that i should have to go thru this...".

i was the one sitting there when she said that, half-way into a coma, and she sounded kind of surprised when she said that.

she was fanatic in her belief in jw-doctrine (although she was inactive the last few years of her life), and she fully believed that armageddon was coming "any day now".

Hellrider

Thanks for the comments, everyone.

Serendipity: Yes, I know, that is a valid point. I don`t know, maybe this illusion of immortality is good while you`re healthy and young. But when the illusion turns to disillution, I think it hits like a ton of bricks. I know it did to my mother, to the point that she had to block it out. Another of the things she said while on her deathbed was "well, it`s not like I`m dying, or anything !" (!!!). She was very good at lying to herself. But there was that one, little moment when reality hit her, and it hit her very, very hard. And that was a very sad thing to watch. I am pretty sure that it is better to go thru life being realistic enough to know that it is one day going to end.

The problem is that the jws are working for a ticket! They are doing the downpayment for this ticket into paradise their whole life. Several people in this thread mentioned people who experienced the same thing as my mother, one mentioned a 55-yearold sister that gave up everything and pioneered her whole life, and never married. Then she got sick and died. All these people, my mother included, were paying for a ticket, and then the flight got cancelled in the very last minute. No refund. And they were so sure they were going to go that vacation in paradise and never return. At least normal people, including the rest of the christians, are aware that they have to go thru death. Christians believe there`s something after death, but they`re not expecting to never have to die. And so, they are never disillusioned. Even if there nothing after death, they won`t be disillusioned. Jws always, and only, get disilliusioned. Every time a jw dies, the WTS has another broken promise on their consciense, and they will also have on their conscience that they have increased the pain of the death moment.

19

"Oh that I should have to go thru this..."

by Hellrider in

when my mother was on her deathbed, she mumbled these words: "oh, that i should have to go thru this...".

i was the one sitting there when she said that, half-way into a coma, and she sounded kind of surprised when she said that.

she was fanatic in her belief in jw-doctrine (although she was inactive the last few years of her life), and she fully believed that armageddon was coming "any day now".

Hellrider

When my mother was on her deathbed, she mumbled these words: "Oh, that I should have to go thru this...". I was the one sitting there when she said that, half-way into a coma, and she sounded kind of surprised when she said that. She was fanatic in her belief in jw-doctrine (although she was inactive the last few years of her life), and she fully believed that Armageddon was coming "any day now". Basically, she believed that she would never die! When she became ill with cancer, she had been to the doctor once in 25 years. She wasn`t to concerned about health issues or checkups, Jehovah was of course going to make her young and healthy and perfect again in the new system anyway, so why bother. I have always known this about her, the extreme belief that she was never going to have to die, and I knew right away where those mumbling words came from "Oh, that I should have to go thru this" (In norwegian, the phrase is more like "oh that I should even have to experience this") .The point of this? The point is, that to me, this is one more aspect of abuse in the jw-world-view. I assume that dying is very hard. I have seen it first-hand twice, the first time I was 12, and watched my father rot away, also from cancer. It took him 11 months in a hospital to die. It`s not exactly something I am looking forward too, dying, but at least I know that one day, I am going to die too. But what about jws? Jws, at least the jws of my mothers generation (you know, the generation that would never die...), truly believe(d) that they were never going to die. I assume even the young ones believe that too, because Armageddon is "right around the corner". And to me, this is abuse. When they then do get old, sick, dying, I believe it must come like a shock to them, even a stronger shock than to normal people. They were promised (yeah yeah, any jw would object to that statement, but we all know that in reality, it is/was a promise) that they were never going to die. And then, when old age, illness and death comes, I think it comes harder than for all the normal, sane people of the world, who expects this to happen. This may sound like just rambling, but to me, this part of the jw-doctrine is abusive. It broke my heart when I heard my mom mumble those words.

57

Oh, Schizm! (Daniel 11:35)

by AuldSoul in

schizm: here's something for you to consider, which you will no doubt disagree with, but that shows that the wts will refine its thinking on these issues:

and some of those having insight will be made to stumble, in order to do a refining work because of them and to do a cleansing and to do a whitening, until the time of [the] end; because it is yet for the time appointed.

-- daniel 11:35 .

Hellrider

PP, I read that "Daniel made simple", it was very good, and now I get it. Am I mistaken to say that the author of Revelation must have drawn a lot of inspiration from Daniel (the beasts and horns and all that)?...(that might be a silly question, but it`s been a long time since the days at the kh, and I was very young... ). Anyway, I can see why jws fall so easily for the "end-time-thing" that is so similar in Daniel and Revelation. On the surface, it seems to be about the same thing ( a future end-time). No wonder, really, that so many people get involved with these end-times-sects (whether they be jws or evangelical-like groups). So Schizm, you are forgiven for your confusion...

57

Oh, Schizm! (Daniel 11:35)

by AuldSoul in

schizm: here's something for you to consider, which you will no doubt disagree with, but that shows that the wts will refine its thinking on these issues:

and some of those having insight will be made to stumble, in order to do a refining work because of them and to do a cleansing and to do a whitening, until the time of [the] end; because it is yet for the time appointed.

-- daniel 11:35 .

Hellrider

Coool

57

Oh, Schizm! (Daniel 11:35)

by AuldSoul in

schizm: here's something for you to consider, which you will no doubt disagree with, but that shows that the wts will refine its thinking on these issues:

and some of those having insight will be made to stumble, in order to do a refining work because of them and to do a cleansing and to do a whitening, until the time of [the] end; because it is yet for the time appointed.

-- daniel 11:35 .

Hellrider

Ok, I`ll be a bit more specific. I make the claim that:

And some of those having insight will be made to stumble, in order to do a refining work because of them and to do a cleansing and to do a whitening, until the time of [the] end; because it is yet for the time appointed. -- Daniel 11:35

...can easily be applied to, for example, the catholic church. They are very strongly unified, and not split up into countless little sects.

57

Oh, Schizm! (Daniel 11:35)

by AuldSoul in

schizm: here's something for you to consider, which you will no doubt disagree with, but that shows that the wts will refine its thinking on these issues:

and some of those having insight will be made to stumble, in order to do a refining work because of them and to do a cleansing and to do a whitening, until the time of [the] end; because it is yet for the time appointed.

-- daniel 11:35 .

Hellrider

Ok, forget about the mormons. What about all the other sects? -- Hellrider.

Forget about them, my ass! It was something you felt sure would overturn my argument, but when it failed to do so then you'd prefer to "forget" about your contention and go deeper without FIRST acknowledging that you were wrong. No thanks! Until you decide to conduct yourself in an honest fashion I don't plan on going the next step with you.

He he. Ok, I forgot about the book of mormons. Satisfied? So, now you can answer the question in my previous post, or AuldSouls argument (either one will do).

I didn`t think so.

57

Oh, Schizm! (Daniel 11:35)

by AuldSoul in

schizm: here's something for you to consider, which you will no doubt disagree with, but that shows that the wts will refine its thinking on these issues:

and some of those having insight will be made to stumble, in order to do a refining work because of them and to do a cleansing and to do a whitening, until the time of [the] end; because it is yet for the time appointed.

-- daniel 11:35 .

Hellrider

Just a question for Schizm:
Obviously the verse has to apply to some religion that claims to be "Christian". So which "Christian" religion would it be? First off, it couldn't refer to what is commonly referred to as "Christendom", a religion that's split up into a multitude of denominations. Denominations do not equal UNITY. Surely the group that Daniel 11:35 applies to would be UNIFIED, rather than split apart into various denominations as Christendom's churches are.
Wouldn`t a whole bunch of sects, who base their beliefs on the Bible, be able to say the exact same thing? For example, the mormons would object to being counted as a part of the rest of "christendom". So would many other sects. In fact, they would all claim this exclusivity (that you attribute to the WTS) to themselves, and count you (and the jws) as part of "christendom". The mormons are unified, just as the jws. So are many of the other sects. Please answer this, and AuldSouls questions.

The Mormon's don't base their beliefs solely on the Bible. They place their faith in a stupid book called the "Book of Mormon". That pretty much rules them out as being able to claim relevance to the Daniel 11:35 text.
.

You`re avoiding answering the argument. Ok, forget about the mormons. What about all the other sects? There are hundreds, you know, and they all have in common that they base their beliefs solely on the Bible:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_deno.htm

...by the way, for a jw to be accusing the mormons of having an extra book as basis for their faith, is a bit like throwing stones in a glass-house. After all, the WTS pretty much rewrote the Bible according to the doctrines they allready had come up with, and called it the nwt. There never was a tetragrammation in the "greek scriptures", and there certainly never was a "Jehovah".

57

Oh, Schizm! (Daniel 11:35)

by AuldSoul in

schizm: here's something for you to consider, which you will no doubt disagree with, but that shows that the wts will refine its thinking on these issues:

and some of those having insight will be made to stumble, in order to do a refining work because of them and to do a cleansing and to do a whitening, until the time of [the] end; because it is yet for the time appointed.

-- daniel 11:35 .

Hellrider

Just a question for Schizm:

Obviously the verse has to apply to some religion that claims to be "Christian". So which "Christian" religion would it be? First off, it couldn't refer to what is commonly referred to as "Christendom", a religion that's split up into a multitude of denominations. Denominations do not equal UNITY. Surely the group that Daniel 11:35 applies to would be UNIFIED, rather than split apart into various denominations as Christendom's churches are.

Wouldn`t a whole bunch of sects, who base their beliefs on the Bible, be able to say the exact same thing? For example, the mormons would object to being counted as a part of the rest of "christendom". So would many other sects. In fact, they would all claim this exclusivity (that you attribute to the WTS) to themselves, and count you (and the jws) as part of "christendom". The mormons are unified, just as the jws. So are many of the other sects. Please answer this, and AuldSouls questions.