Posts by ChristFollower

32

Watchtower Society visits Apostate Website!

by Rado Vleugel in

jw
friends

hello friends,.

i thought this might interst you:.

the wts is a regular visitor of watchtower information service, in the definition of the watchtower, an apostate website (screenshots of site statistics that proof the visits of the wts are shown in the article)!.

ChristFollower

I work as a Systems Administrator for an Internet company. With my experience, I have to agree with the original poster regarding this. A little program called Neo Trace will give you the trace for srv1.wtbts.org straight to Brooklyn NY headquarters. It will even give the longitude and latitude of their location. Heh. (The power of the Internet).

This definately came from Bethel. At my company, we recently locked down our LAN so that our own employees can't go anywhere on the NET without us knowing exactly where, for how long, and from what workstation. No reason to think the WT doesn't do that for their Bethelites. I would say they are seeing what they have to do "damage control" on as the poster points out. People don't set up their LAN's for casual use these days for just anyone to happen by. If nothing else, I am sure that they have the LAN locked down tight so that no one uses their machines to surf porn sites (visiting contractors and non-JW's included).

An "insider" would go to the public library and surf the web if they are smart; because they wouldn't last long otherwise, imho.

Looks like their Info Sec security is pretty low. If they were bright they would use a proxy that doesn't have their name on it. Oops. Oh well. Bet they won't do that again.

I wouldn't be surprised if members of the Governing Body went to sites; the legal team; or high-ranking members who are assigned to do research. The GB and the elders think they are above the rules. I suspected this for some time.

Here is the output from the trace:

Name: srv1.wtbts.org
IP Address: 208.210.221.70
Location: New York (40.694N, 73.990W)
Network: Watchtower Bible and Tract Society

Registrant:
Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Inc. (WTBTS-DOM)
25 Columbia Heights
Brooklyn, NY 11201-2483
US

McAfee Visual Trace Version 3.25 Results
Target: srv1.wtbts.org
Date: 2/27/2002 (Wednesday), 8:33:28 AM
Nodes: 25

Node Data
Node Net Reg IP Address Location Node Name
25 1 1 208.210.221.70 New York srv1.wtbts.org

Packet Data
Node High Low Avg Tot Lost
25 73 73 73 1 0

Network Data
Network id#: 1
Watchtower Bible and Tract Society (NETBLK-UU-208-210-221-64)
25 Columbia Heights
Brooklyn, NY 11201
US

Netname: UU-208-210-221-64
Netblock: 208.210.221.64 - 208.210.221.127

Coordinator:
Gott, Joel (JG5823-ARIN) [email protected]
(718) 625-3600 (FAX) (718) 560-5309

Record last updated on 11-Nov-1997.
Database last updated on 25-Feb-2002 20:01:06 EDT.

The ARIN Registration Services Host contains ONLY Internet
Network Information: Networks, ASN's, and related POC's.
Please use the whois server at rs.internic.net for DOMAIN related

Registrant Data
Registrant id#: 1
The Data in the VeriSign Registrar WHOIS database is provided by VeriSign for
information purposes only, and to assist persons in obtaining information about
or related to a domain name registration record. VeriSign does not guarantee
its accuracy. Additionally, the data may not reflect updates to billing contact
information. By submitting a WHOIS query, you agree to use this Data only
for lawful purposes and that under no circumstances will you use this Data to:
(1) allow, enable, or otherwise support the transmission of mass unsolicited,
commercial advertising or solicitations via e-mail, telephone, or facsimile; or
(2) enable high volume, automated, electronic processes that apply to VeriSign
(or its computer systems). The compilation, repackaging, dissemination or
other use of this Data is expressly prohibited without the prior written
consent of VeriSign. VeriSign reserves the right to terminate your access to
the VeriSign Registrar WHOIS database in its sole discretion, including
without limitation, for excessive querying of the WHOIS database or for failure
to otherwise abide by this policy. VeriSign reserves the right to modify these
terms at any time. By submitting this query, you agree to abide by this policy.

Registrant:
Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Inc. (WTBTS-DOM)
25 Columbia Heights
Brooklyn, NY 11201-2483
US

Domain Name: WTBTS.ORG

Administrative Contact, Technical Contact, Billing Contact:
Gott, Joel (JG5823) [email protected]
Watchtower Bible & Tract Society of New York, Inc.
25 Columbia Heights
Brooklyn, NY 11201-2483
(718) 560-5333 (FAX) (815) 346-2198

Record last updated on 27-Dec-2000.
Record expires on 28-Dec-2002.
Record created on 27-Dec-1996.
Database last updated on 26-Feb-2002 21:16:00 EST.

Domain servers in listed order:

NS.WTBTS.ORG 208.210.221.70
_____
Visual Trace Copyright ©1997-2001 NeoWorx Inc

2

Terms of Surrender

by Justin in

jw
friends

having left jws over 20 years ago, and having just got on-line after dragging my heels into cyberspace, was i surprised to find the networking that is taking place among jws, xjws, and interested parties!

we're at war with the dark spiritual forces behind the wt.

it is a spiritual, nonviolent war.. so what is the objective?

ChristFollower

First my comments to the athiest ex-JW's among us. (and even taoists, buddhists, Muslims, Heathens, etc). I am really glad you are an ex-JW even if you are now an athiest! I am happy for you. That may seem like a strange statement, but I will illustrate it this way:

If a soldier came back from a war and was missing a leg, I would not berate him for it - I am just glad he made it back alive. I would of course prefer he had both legs, for his sake, but I am just glad he is alive. I feel the same way about ex-JW's - I am glad ex-JW's made it out alive (with their sanity and not commiting suicide - many haven't), no matter what your philisophical position is now. This may seem like a strange statement to some, but almost anything is better than having every thought and action controlled by the WT-borg. Ex-JW's are better off for themselves, their families, and society in general - even if they are Taoists, and I'm not kidding.

That said, Justin, yes it is a spiritual war against the WT's malign influences in the earth. The WT will ultimately fail because it is opposed to God and His purposes. The WT seeks to replace God with itself, and replace salvation by grace with salvation by blind obedience to the WT. They are misled. Let's be glad they at least aren't violent opposers of God and Christianity.

The way to fight back is to get your brain together, and everything else in life together - emotionally, financially, etc.

And Prayer. Prayer is a powerful. The WT blasphemes God - there will be consequences in time and eternity.

The WT is already fading upon its own weight. Here is some reasons why it will fail:

1. The WT will ultimately fail because it is opposed to God and His purposes.

2. Eventually, maybe it will take 100 years? but JDubs will begin to realize that the "end" isn't coming tomorrow, and the only responsible thing to do is provide for one's family, and actually have a career! Poverty isn't a very appealing thing.

3. Teaching poverty leads to the members having less to contribute.

4. The "144,000" are supposedly the mediator between God and man. When they all die (and eventually they will) there will be a problem.
If all Jdubs are of "the other class" then there is no inherent right to "rule over" everyone else as the GB does.

5. The Millenium is a bablylonian pipe dream. It, along with most other teachings, are Humanist to the core. They look more and more foolish every day.

6. Their own social isolation will make them increasingly irrelevant. Starving people need some food, not a WT or Awake magazine.

7. The internet brings a convergence of ideas cheaply to everyone. This forum is an example. We don't have to have a billion dollar printing enterprise to publish an idea. We can do it posting in a forum. Websites get ideas published for pennies on the dollar.

8. Networking means more informed consumers that won't get easily sucked in by WT schizophrenic logic. This will be especially critical in developing areas of the world.

9. Study philosophy, logic, and theology. Any WT doctrine can be disproved easily. However, don't waste time debating things such as essential Christian doctrines with hard-core JW's. It isn't the point. JW's are a danger to themselves, their families, and society because of their arrogance and lack of thought outside of what the Borg dictates.

10. Get Steven Hassan's books - use his techniques when dealing with JW's. Logical thinking trips them up like a virus introduced into the Borg. Plant a seed, and eventually it will germinate and they will realize the situation they are in like a computer virus in a system.

10

How A Witness Might Respond to Doctrinal Errors

by stevieb1 in

jw
friends

hello people.

i would appreciate your take on the following reasoning.. a witness when presented with some errors of wt doctrine such as 607bce for example could turn round and say, "well we might be wrong on this but this matter is not as bad as teaching that god burns sinners in a fiery hell forever like some religion of christendom do.

i do not feel that chronology (or some other matter) affects my relationship with jehovah and his organization.

ChristFollower

The following is fallacious logic:

"Well we might be wrong on this but this matter is not as bad as teaching that God burns sinners in a fiery hell forever like some religion of Christendom do. I do not feel that chronology (or some other matter) affects my relationship with Jehovah and his organization."

First, it is side stepping the issue. The issue is doctinal errors (major errors) made by anonymous, un-educated, "un-inspired" men who simultaneously claim to be "the only channel of communication from God to men" (that's what Christ claims for himself, btw). Is God lying to them? Or is God vauge in communicating His message to them? Or are they just way to incompetent to get the message right?

The objection is like saying "Ya, we may be wrong, but at least we got no money". What does that have to do with anything? It sides steps the issue and attempts to place the blame elsewhere.

Second, it isn't even accurate or factual. In the protestant religion, there is the following declaration that is some 500 years old. Please note that it does not teach "hell fire" it teaches hell is a place of torments - meaning you don't want to be there, regardless if there are flames or not. Hell is complete seperation from God. Heaven is where the redeemed say to God "Thy will be done." Hell is the place where God says to the lost "Thy will be done". In other words, they want nothing to do with God, so it is a kindness that they don't have to be forced to be in the presence of God. But, it is not pleasant.

"I. The bodies of men, after death, return to dust, and see corruption:(Genesis 3:19) but their souls, which neither die nor sleep, having an immortal subsistence, immediately return to God who gave them:(Luke 23:43, Ecclesiastes 12:7) the souls of the righteous, being then made perfect in holiness, are received into the highest heavens, where they behold the face of God, in light and glory, waiting for the full redemption of their bodies.(Hebrews 12:23, 2 Corinthians 5:1, 6, 8; Philippians 1:23; Acts 3:21; Ephesians 4:100 And the souls of the wicked are cast into hell, where they remain in torments and utter darkness, reserved to the judgment of the great day.(Luke 16:23-24; Acts 1:25; Jude 6-7; 1 Peter 3:19) Besides these two places, for souls separated from their bodies, the Scripture acknowledgeth none."

The problem, partly, is that they really have no idea what Christians believe. They only know the SimpleThink(tm) the WT-Borg has taught them.

18

Witnesses just came at my door!!!!!

by gilwarrior in

jw
friends

holy crap!

i was surfing through this site when i hear a knock at my door.

no, it can't!

ChristFollower

The JW's rarely ever come around, even though a KH is only a few miles up the road (blah!). At first I didn't answer the door, I didn't want to talk to them for fear I would say something I would regret (Its the WT Borg leaders I mostly have a beef with).

Once the Tragedy happened on 9-11, the perverts suddenly got real active and started coming around (they are just so happy and smug about tragedy - poor perverts don't even know they are misfits). So I answered the door. I mostly just get a kick out of answering their silly scripted questions and watching them squirm. One was in her fifties, the other was young. The young one didn't even make eye contact with me.

They offered an Awake! to me about Teenage suicide. I replied to them that I do not have a teenager and am not suicidal (I probably should have taken it, but I couldn't pass up and opportunity like that - they weren't even good at the doors). The older one (she must have been a pioneer?) then asked if with all of the problems (blah..blah) if I thought there was one that could solve the world's problems. I replied, "yes, the Triune God can solve all of the world's problem". What a silly question. She agreed like she believed in the Trinity, but I knew they didn't and I could tell they were wanting to go. It was great though, I had an American Flag flying, I remember that I hated going to doors with an American flag flying back when I was a JDub.

She quoted some scripture that proved nothing, and I explained what it really meant (contrary to what the un-educated; anonymous; "un-inspired" WT writers tell them), and they both turned and just left. I was nice to them, but they were almost hostile to me. I'm waiting for them to come back...funny thing is...they never do.

I wouldn't debate anything with them, it is pointless, but I hope to get their thought processes working again. So hard to re-vive the Borgs once they seperate from the SimpleThink(tm) of the WT-Borg.

7

Double-think

by voltaire in

jw
friends

i have gone round and round with my wife about jws and disfellowshipping.

our marriage, which wasn't so hot for the last year, is pretty well shot now.

i try to explain to her that being dfed for simply disagreeing with the wt is offensive to me.

ChristFollower

...Jaw Drops...

Her answer to me is. If the Slave Class is telling us wrong information. If the Elders are doing the wrong thing. Then Jehovah will take care of them and we will still be saved.

What do you say to something like that? I'm sorry for you. At least she said what she thought. I think that is what a lot of JW's think, but don't go around saying because they know it doesn't make sense.

How is it that listening to a bunch anonymous; uneducated; "uninspired" (nudge, nudge, wink, wink) writers that appoint themselves on a Governing Body at the WT is "ok"? It's ridiculous. If they are doing things wrong, and the elders are doing things grossly wrong, and the things they teach are grossly wrong, tell me again why I should stay? Who gave them the title "God's only spokesperson and Saviour of the world"? They don't have it. Salvation isn't through belonging to an organization. I dare them to show me that it does.

Can you tell JW's don't stay at my door long? Nowhere does it say in the Bible that salvation is through belonging to an organization.

The WT isn't the Holy Ghost (no matter that they think they are). The WT isn't a mediator between men and GOD (that is what Jesus said HE was). The WT isn't the Jewish priestly system. Jesus said that "where two or more are gathered in my name", He is there. Notice that there is not a requirement for the Borg Organization to be there too with their schizophrenic logic to spread. Man, it's amazing the head job they do to people.

</EndRant>

I can't imagine being married to JW, must be very rough.

17

Wasted life as a JW?....Be Optimistic!

by ISP in

jw
friends

its not too late to learn or be educated or retrained etc!

its easy for me to say i guess...but it cannot be anymore.

times have definitely changed.. in the uk most folks planned on retiring at 60..possibly 55. it was important to get ahead while in your early 20s and hope to be coining it in your 30s, 40s.

ChristFollower

Funny...this is my first time here today - seeing all the references to borg - I coincidently downloaded a borg wave at http://www.dailywav.com/ before coming here.

Anyway, I'm in the same boat here. Wasted 10 years of my life *not going to college* because that was the right thing to do according to the borg. The amazing thing is that I woke up when I was 24 and started going to college. Working full-time, and changing majors and schools a couple of times, and I'm still going to school at 31. <Sigh> It's all good though, at least I have a career and good health insurance which is more than I can say for most still in the WT Borg.

I feel like such a dope. I can remember being in high school telling a counselor "no, I'm not going to college (despite my grades and aptitude) I'm going to pioneer full-time and go to bethel." What a dope I was!

Yep, I predict that once all those aging JW's begin to realize that the "end" isn't coming next week, they are going to wish they did more than mop floors part-time. Let's see...no health insurance...no savings... no career... no education == no money for the WT Borg... Hehe. It comes full circle.

11

MY FATHER HAS BEEN REASSIMULATED!!

by Ranchette in

jw
friends

yes, im sick!

my father willingly allowed himself to be reabsorbed by the borg!.

during the time he was dfd and separated from my mother (church lady) i tried to help him see through to the real colors of the organization.. he has not one spiritual bone in his body and never has.. he really didnt want to discuss it.. i was concerned because i knew that between the organization and my mom he just believed he was a bad person who would be destroyed at armageddon.

ChristFollower

Sorry to hear that Ranchette. The best I can say is set a good example for them. They live empty lives as JW's, and have no answers for life's problems (I'm speaking of my experiences, and those of my relatives). Most of my immediate family have left the WT after seeing that I didn't get struck by lightning after leaving - and actually am doing far better out than I ever did in. The WT teaches that those that leave mostly implode, and I have been determined to show them (the WT) wrong :)

Take care

53

Ethics and morality,

by Norm in

jw
friends

in the west we are rightly very concerned with child labour and other such matters.

western consumer groups boycott firms that have their clothes made by factories using children.

i know this is usual in europe and i guess it is in the us too.. in other areas we see no such concerns.

ChristFollower

Hmmm.

"has one huge human right violation in common with many of those countries, namely capital punishment."

Let's see. I must assume that you are an athiest, or at least a practicing athiest? I am wondering, because I have honestly never met someone that is not in favor of capital punishment. In the US, I have only heard such nonsense (no offense) from the liberal media here. Are you from Europe? I am just curious.

According to whose standard is capital punishment a human rights violation?

Someone who murders and rapes a child deserves to die himself. If that is a "human rights" violation, then so be it.

Anyway, just my humble opinion.

17

Why I Became an Inactive Witness

by Dutchy in

jw
friends

i used to be a gungho witnesses.

i was even a full time pioneer with small children and i used to drag my kids with me from door to door, in the heat of summer and in the cold of winter.

goin from door to door in buildings where crime was rampant and where i should not have been in the first place.

ChristFollower

Hi, I'm new to the board. I thought I would chime in on this thread, hope you don't mind. I became inactive - I just stopped going. It is easier on the other relatives still in (speaking from my experience). DA and DF puts up big mental barriers that are harder to get through than just not going. Their defenses are down (hope the WT isn't reading this) so it is easier to talk to them and discuss things.

After I left, I drifted spiritually. Which is to say that I was so brainwashed against Churches that I would feel like a stereotypical vampire at just the sight of a cross in a Church. Besides that, Churches reminded me of being at a WT meeting...

I would say study a lot. I ran into an educated Christian and studied a lot of theology and was converted to Christianity (not that I don't still have residual issues from be in the WT for so long). I have found that even philosophy and logic have helped a lot in putting my head back together. I probably didn't help any :) but these forums are like therapy that I indulge in from time to time.

God Bless

33

Your FIRST reaction to these words:

by belbab in

jw
friends

and this good news of the kingdom will be preached inall the inhabited earth for the purpose of a witness to all the nations, and then the accomplished end will come.

.

belbab

ChristFollower

My current reaction is that those words were fulfilled for the people they were spoken to in their time 2,000 years ago. The "end" DID come. It was the end of the Jewish priestly system. When Jerusalem was destroyed - so was the temple. The system has never been restored. There is absolutely no reason to think that those words applied to an uknown people 2,000 years in the future. There is absolutely no reason to think that those words were pinned specifically for the present century ... or any other future century for that matter.