ray franz is still a slave!
(he seems a nice bloke though).
after reading the other post about franz today i though i'd like to talk about something that i feel about franz which can be said about many ex-witnesses.. you are still slaves of men!.
Indeed. And if your presupposition is wrong, then all thinking that stems from it is also wrong.
Everyone must have a presupposition. I choose mine to be that God exists, and that the Bible is his infallible revelation to God. You have yours, and let's be glad our presuppositions are no longer that the WT speaks for God.
about three weeks ago i told a friend about the un thing, no-one else, i had known for months but didn't tell her till she brought up a similar subject.
i gave her a printout from a guardian article, i have only had a short terse text message since.
i know she has a lot more to lose than i did, and i stopped going to meetings last year.
Meat Pie,
If they ask you this question:
"Do you believe this is GOd's organization and the the GOverning Body is the Faithful and Discreet Slave?"
I say walk out. I wouldn't subject myself to their kangaroo court. Or, I would put it back to them "Do you think God's organization would join and promote UN politics and agenda? Do you think that is faithful of the "discreet slave"?
Hehe
personnally, i thing that the movie "the matrix" and the movie "the truman show" really describe my experience in the wbts.
when i discovered the truth about the "truth", my perception of the reality became really different.
all that i have been taught was just a big lie.
The Matrix for me.
ray franz is still a slave!
(he seems a nice bloke though).
after reading the other post about franz today i though i'd like to talk about something that i feel about franz which can be said about many ex-witnesses.. you are still slaves of men!.
Don't throw the baby out with the bath water. The WT is an evil organization. It is a fallacy to then reject the Bible because of what those evil men did and said.
My presupposition is that God exists, and the Bible is his inspired word. All thinking stems from that.
I respect your right to be an athiest, but it is pointless to ridicule those that believe. What does that solve?
what happend inn the word now?.
us is the word police doing what they want, putting peopel in prision and bombing innocent peopel,.
and yesterday he come upp widh a crazy idea that other countrys must pay tax on 30% iff they want to sell steel to us, and what will happend, europe must akt inn the same way, perhaps 30% on evry car imported from us, i must say i think this man is a dissaster for us.
Happy Man,
Do you vote? The WT said you could, but the CO's say you can't. I really, really hope JW's DON'T vote.
Bush enjoys THE HIGHEST approval rating of any US president in history (90%) of the US. Even liberals have changed their tune in post 9-11 and are glad that Bush is president. If Gore were president, we would all be doomed. Let's face it.
Do you know what these "Jihad" believing muslims believe? They believe that ALL people in the world MUST believe like them, or they all will die. I am not exaggerating. Figure it out: JW's and most of Sweden would be killed (or convert) if men like Osoma Bin Laden got their way.
Fact: The Jihad Muslims in the Sudan have killed 2 million Christians. What has Europe done about it? Europe is so wrapped up in its socialist anti-god thinking that it can't even see straight.
The only thing standing in the way of Jihad Muslims and the slaughter of many 100's of millions more is the US. God Bless America.
thanks for calling this to my attention.
my reason for not wanting book material to be run on certain web sites is purely because of finding their approach out of harmony with my own principles and standards, so many are engaged in watch tower trashing and extremely negative.
some sites present material that promotes agnosticism and distrust of the scriptures, even atheism (one such site being in scandanavia).
IslandWoman,
Months after I left the WT, I went online looking for Raymond Franz's insights (since the WT had bad mouthed him so much, I knew he must have something). I didn't read his book until years later, and then only by scanning it.
You have to realize that Ray Franz did his part by exposing the "inside" of the WT, but that is it. Which is to say, Ray Franz isn't meant to be a spiritual leader. Think about it: if an ex-JW leaves the WT, what is the natural response if Franz was leading some kind of church? The ex-Jdub response might be to follow this ex-WT GB-man in the way they followed the WT. Are you getting my drift? From what I could tell, Raymond Franz was just as messed up after writing the book, as he was while a JW (theologically speaking). An ex-JW may be inclined to make him a new cult leader to replace the WT. What I am saying, is that it is for the best that he lay low.
No, I am glad he isn't involved because it would just give the WT something to criticize. God bless Raymon Franz's courage to write the book. But I really think it is for the best that he not be a "public figure" leading the charge against the WT. Will someone ever be that "public figure"? Who knows?
i heard calvinist theology and jw beleifs are very similair, including aggresive door to door preaching, limited number go to heaven, exclusion of non-members and isolation, etc.
anyone fill me in more?
im sick and feel too blechy to research it myself.
btw, I am a Calvinist and belong to the Presbyterian Church of America.
is it any more religions on earth who have over 6 million members, and who not are taking a part inn war, and not take part inn politics .
, some say we have more , but i dont find anyone who is inn almost evry country on this earth, it can not be easy to lead this peopel, some here complain very much, but if you will lead 6 millions you will se it is not easy.. if i compere widh other organisations who i now, the problem are minimal.
we can see a clear thing today, evrything is breaking upp, .
Happy Man,
Welcome. We don't disfellowship those with dissenting views here. Do you really think JW's are unique?
Is it any more religions on earth who have over 6 million membersThere are a billion communists in China, does that mean that communism is the true politics?
who not are taking a part inn warJW's are like parasites. They are defended from harm by the local civil government, and their country is protected from invasion by their local military of their government, and they piously proclaim how righteous they are for not defending their neighbors. Get a clue my friend.
and not take part inn politicsReally? You haven't seen JW elder politics have you? Why did the WT join the UN and actively promote the UN politics? What is wrong with politics anyway? Oh, you don't know do you? I can see that deer caught in the headlights look now.
If i compere widh other organisations who i now, the problem are minimal. We can see a clear thing today, evrything is breaking uppWT propaganda. Proves nothing. Everything is NOT breaking up. This isn't the end of the world. Beath deep happy man. Deep breaths. Now repeat after me "I am going to be ok".
ther we have a bigg mess, widh a lot ofThat's because they have freedom of speech. JW's and the WT would have fighting in their midst IF they didn't disfellowship those who disagreed on minor points. There is no disagreement in the Borg of Star Trek. That's why the WT is called the Borg.
fithing between diffrent parts inn the C
I think we live inn very difficult times when it seems that evrything is breaking down, peopel dont now what to hold on to.Hold on to God. You don't need to hold on to any Organization.
So i think dispite all errors we as JW are rader happy that we are outside this mess.Happy like someone on prozac.
Who else can we find widhout any protection?I want to puke. JW's are protected by the governement in which they live in. Do you think JW's live in their own country? Maybe in their imagination.
Who else is telling the messege of kingdom on earthNot JW's. They don't even know what the kingdom of God is. What is it happy man? There is that deer in the headlights look again. Christians are telling the message of the kingdom on earth. You should go to an orthodox church sometime.
who else is telling the name of the lord, as jesus learnd us blessd is your NAME, inn his pray.Again not JW's. His name is most likely Yahweh. But they don't say that do they? Again, all Christians in all churches know what God's name is.
who else try to follow evry littel bibel law, most religion say, do what you want, it is not so important,You mean the antinomians? Not all Christians are antinomian.
when i read on this sites for a fuw month i must say, most of the peopel here is like lost sheeps, wondering where to go,Oh, like the WT has any kind of answers. Hey happy man, some of the people here were KICKED OUT by your "loving" Organization.
dispite some errors i think it is better to still be aJW, widh all ther good and bad sides, for me the god are in majority.Ok, I dare you: go to your elders and tell them they are wrong. Tell them they have errors. See how long you last before they kick you out too, and when they do, we'll be here.
old habits die hard...and quite often in my comments i will refer to the borg as the 'truth'.
does anyone know of any other churches that refer to their own particular church or religion as the 'truth'??
also, does anyone know how it originated...all my life i have used the term...comments like 'how long have u been in the truth?
Yadirf,
I do not believe that my religion is infallible - that would be idolatry. Are JW's idolaters of the WT?
I also believe that people are saved despite religion, not because of it.
Jesus Christ saves, not a "borg" WT Organization.
It is degrees of "truth" that religions have. Some have 90% (none have 100%!), while others have 10%. Belonging to the "truth" does not get you saved, belonging to Jesus Christ is what gets you saved.
I am a member of a church that I believe is closest to Bible teachings, and is available in my city. I fully believe, however, that there are those who are Lutherans, Baptists, and even Catholics who are saved and are going to heaven.
i heard calvinist theology and jw beleifs are very similair, including aggresive door to door preaching, limited number go to heaven, exclusion of non-members and isolation, etc.
anyone fill me in more?
im sick and feel too blechy to research it myself.
JW theology and Calvinist theology are at complete opposites of the spectrum.
JW theology is closely related to arminianism which is the opposite of Calvinist beliefs.
The founder Russell, made up his own religion that was explicitly opposed to the Westminister Confession of Faith and Calvinist belief. Remeber all the JW teaching against "once saved always saved"?
Remember the Reformation? Remember Martin Luther? John Calvin was another reformer during the Reformation that has influenced the church.
Here is the 5 points of Arminianism. If you know anything about JW's, you will see that they believe all five in one form or another.
Arminianism - Similar to WT theology
1. Free Will or Human Ability
Although human nature was seriously affected by the fall, man has not been left in a state of total spiritual helplessness. God graciously enables every sinner to repent and believe, but He does so in such a manner as not to interfere with man's freedom. Each sinner possesses a free will, and his eternal destiny depends on how he uses it. Man's freedom consists of his ability to choose good over evil in spiritual matters; his will is not enslaved to his sinful nature. The sinner has the power to either cooperate with God's Spirit and be regenerated or resist God's grace and perish. The lost sinner needs the Spirit's assistance, but he does not have to be regenerated by the Spirit before he can believe, for faith is man's act and precedes the new birth. faith is the sinner's gift to God; it is man's contribution to salvation.
2. Conditional Election
God's choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world was based upon His foreseeing that they would respond to His call. He selected only those whom He knew would of themselves freely believe the gospel. Election therefore was determined by or conditioned upon what man would do. The faith which God foresaw and upon which He based His choice was not given to the sinner by God (it was not created by the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit) but resulted solely from man's will. It was left entirely up to man as to who would believe and therefore as to who would be elected unto salvation. God chose those whom He knew would, of their own free will, choose Christ. Thus the sinner's choice of Christ, not God's choice of the sinner, is the ultimate cause of salvation.
3. Universal Redemption of General Atonement
Christ's redeeming work made it possible for everyone to be saved but did not actually secure the salvation of anyone. Although Christ died for all men and for every man, only those who believe in Him are saved. His death enabled God to pardon sinners on the condition that they believe, but it did not actually put away anyone's sins. Christ's redemption becomes effective only if man chooses to accept it.
4. The Holy Spirit Can Be Effectually Resisted
The Spirit calls inwardly all those who are called outwardly by the gospel invitation; He does all that He can to bring every sinner to salvation. But inasmuch as man is free, he can successfully resist the Spirit's call. The Spirit cannot regenerate the sinner until he believes; faith (which is man's contribution) precedes and makes possible the new birth. Thus, man's ree will limits the Spirit in the application of Christ's saving work. The Holy Spirit can only draw to Christ those who allow Him to have His way with them. Until the sinner responds, the Spirit cannot give life. God's grace, therefore, is not invincible; it can be, and often is, resisted and thwarted by man.
5. Falling from Grace
Those who believe and are truly saved can lose their salvation by failing to keep up their faith, (in the case of JW's, failing to go to meetings, FS, etc) etc.
All Arminians have not been agreed on the point some have held that believers are eternally secure in Christ -- that once a sinner is regenerated, he can never be lost.
Calvinist belief on these five points are as follows - and have nothing to do with JW theology.
1. Total Inability or Total Depravity
Because of the fall, man is unable of himself to savingly believe the gospel. The sinner is dead, blind, and deaf to the things of God; his heart is deceitful and desperately corrupt. His will is not free, it is in bondage to his evil nature, therefore, he will not -- indeed he cannot -- choose good over evil in the spiritual realm. Consequently, it takes much more than the Spirit's assistance to bring a sinner to Christ -- it takes regeneration by which the Spirit makes the sinner alive and givew him a new nature. Faith is not something man contributes to salvation but is itself a part of God's gift of salvation -- it is God's gift to the sinner, not the sinner's gift to God.
2. Unconditional Election
God's choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world rested solely in His own sovereign will. His choice of particular sinners was not based on any foreseen response or obediance on their part, such as faith, repentance, etc. On the contrary, God gives faith and repentance to each individual whom He selected. These acts are the result, not the cause of God's choice. Election therefore was not determined by or conditioned upon any virtuous quality or act foreseen in man. Those whom God sovereignly elected He brings through the power of the Spirit to a willing acceptance of Christ. Thus God's choice of the sinner, not the sinner's choice of Christ, is the ultimate cause of salvation.
3. Particular Redemption of Limited Atonement
Christ's redeeming work was intended to save the elect only and actually secured salvation for them. His death was a substitutionary endurance of the penalty of sin in the place of certain specified sinners. In addition to putting away the sins of His people, Christ's redemption secured everything necessary for their salvation, including faith which unites them to Him. The gift of faith is infallibly applied by the Spririt to all for whom Christ died, thereby guaranteeing their salvation.
4. The Efficacious Call of the Spirit or Irresistible Grace
In addition to the outward general call to salvation which is made to everyone who hears the gospel, the Holy Spirit extends to the elect a special inward call that inevitably brings them to salvation. The external call (which is made to all without distinction) can be, and often is, rejected; whereas the internal call (which is made only to the elect) cannot be rejected; it always results in conversion. By means of this special call the Spirit irresistibly draws sinners to Christ. He is not limited in His work of applying salvation by man's will, nor is He dependent upon Man's cooperation for success. The Spirit graciously causes the elect sinner to cooperate, to believe, to repent, to come freely and willingly to Christ. God's grace, therefore, is invincible; it never fails to result in the salvation of those to whom it is extended.
5. Perseverance of the Saints[/b]
All who were chosen by God, redeemed by Christ, and given faith by the Spirit are eternally saved. They are kept in faith by the power of Almighty God and thus persevere to the end.
