Raymond Franz's Betrayal

IslandWoman

Thanks for calling this to my attention. My reason for not wanting book material to be run on certain web sites is purely because of finding their approach out of harmony with my own principles and standards, so many are engaged in Watch Tower trashing and extremely negative. Some sites present material that promotes agnosticism and distrust of the Scriptures, even atheism (one such site being in Scandanavia)

IMO, it is sad that Ray Franz has by these words (provided by Celia) distanced himself from those who are in many respects his children. He taught us about the hypocrisy of the GB, yet he now claims that Kent's site and others are unacceptable because they trash the GB. Why? What did he think would happen? That we would all say: the poor GB they trampled us, killed us but never will we talk bad about them?! Yet, he did!

He taught us that the GB was no good, the Watchtower was no good, Rutherford was no good etc. Now he seems to say that only he can express these thoughts! Kent and Randy are, well, just too radical.

Please excuse us, Brother Franz. We do not have the finesse and genteel that you have of expressing that very personal feeling of:
WE HAVE BEEN FUCKED WITH! You never taught a son or daughter lies. You never lost a child to a false blood teaching. You never cried with and stood behind a child who was spiritually dying because of the Watchtower!

Maybe this is why we are more angry than you could ever be! A parent remembers, and continues to bleed!

IW

gumby

Quote : Now he seems to say that only he can express these thoughts!
He's not saying that. It is the MANNER in which some expose the WT.
He has provided assistance with others who expose them.

All he is saying is he dosen't feel comfortable to have his material in a place that disagrees with what he believes is the proper way to expose.

He has a right to feel this way. I'm sure he is way more aware of the tradgedies that have occured to all who have sufferd from this group than most of us have.

He has done too much good for all of us that we should rag on him for a decision he made that he did in good conscience.

He didn't BETRAY anyone!

IslandWoman

Gumby,

You have a right to your opinion! So do I, and my opinion is that Ray Franz has played the "Pied Piper", then turned around and said we should not speak against the very ones who have tore out our entrails!

Fanciful thinking! He started it!

IW

flower

maybe being bitter and angry and full of hate is just not what hes about. thats no reason to disrespect the man or to imply that his 50+ or whatever years wasted in the 'truth' left him less hurt than you or anyone else because he doesnt have children.

you need to get some threrapy hon. seriously. the man has dignity and values and if he chooses to keep those to a higher standard than someone else then hes' betraying?? thats ridiculous.

we all owe him a lot for giving of himself the way he has. and there is nothing you can say bad about the man.

get some help.

flower

IslandWoman

Flower,

I will use the term "hon" as you did.

Hon, wake up to the real world! There are few all bad people and NO all good people!

OK, get ready for this: Ray Franz is not perfect!!!

I know it's a shock but by now you should have realized that no one is perfect!

I love the man, but he has abandoned us! Why doesn't he post here or on "Channel C"? Why doesn't he encourage faith in the Bible here? Why is he silent? He leaves those who still believe in the Bible to the ferocious ravaging of atheistic wolves! WHY!

IW

chappy

How credible do you think Ray's expose' would have been by bashing the WTS? Yes, he exposed the hypocracy and falsehood in the Org., but it was done with respect and dignity. Now you think he should drop his Christian ideals and bash away? Like it or not, Ray is a Christian, and true Christians try to follow the example of Christ, who said to love your enemies. It's damn near impossible for me personally to hold my tonque about the Borg, but that's my weakness. I certainly don't expect Ray to change his ideals to suit my fancy. An athiest or non-christian doesn't follow the same ideals, therefore they react differently. This isn't meant to "bash" non-christians or athiests, it's just that their goals are different. For example Kent has done a tremendous job of providing detailed information about the WTS. It's just that he has different ideals than Ray.

later,
chappy

Sam Beli

Hello IW,

I’m not sure we should be called Ray’s children. Sure, he helped us to see much behind the walls of secrecy at the Borg. However, many of us would eventually have come to much the same place without his books, though it probably would have taken longer.

For example, many of us would have left because of the blood issue. It did not take Ray’s books to tell me that “you can take all of the fractions of plasma individually, but not all together as plasma" made no sense. Others would be “turned off” by the generation change, the Awake! Inside cover change, voting position change, alternative service change, etc.

Ray’s books certainly provide confirmation and much valuable detail not readily available otherwise.

However, I can understand Ray’s reluctance to be associated with Kent. Kent is a bit rough around the edges for my taste too, no, more than a bit rough. I admire his very inclusive web site, but he is sometimes crude and vulgar. Even you, IW, lowered yourself by use of the “F” word. Was that really necessary? That word once really bothered me. I have now seen it so much that I am becoming too used to it. I can believe that Ray has not and never will become used to many of the 4 letter words. They may send a message that he does not wish to be associated with.

If he does not want to be associated with distrust of the Scriptures and atheism is that not his right? He is a huge promoter of freedom. To my knowledge he has not called for the closure of Kent’s site, just an abstention on his part. We may not agree with Ray’s position, but lets grant each one the freedom to choose their associates.

Notice that Ray still uses Wt like expressions: “(one such site being in Scandinavia).” Guess he can’t help it.

Prisca

IW,

Ray Franz is an old man. I believe he is in his seventies. He's not as internet-savvy as you or I might be.

Ray Franz is, from what others have said about him, a very generous and hospitable man. He has personally answered letters. He is involved in the distribution of the books that have helped thousands of people. He holds small Bible studies in his own home.

He has also suffered from a stroke recently.

So to demand that he comes online is a tad rediculous.

He has "abandoned" no one. He has stated his thoughts in his books, and now he's left it up to us to deal with our spirituality, which is the message in his book anyway. It is the choice of the individual to establish his/her own relationship with God. Ray Franz isn't a Messiah. He's a normal human being just like the rest of us.

gumby

IW.. Quote "Why is he silent"?
Do you how old this man is? He is in his eighties!
How is his health? Do you know?
Have you any ides how much correspondance he reply's to that eats his time.
How rude for you to demand from him more than he has given.
He has told enough!He has exposed the WT for what it is.
What more do you want from him? More guidence.....so people will call us "His Children"!

Give the guy a break!

Amazing

HI IW: Fascinating post, and thought provoking. Here are some points:

"He taught us about the hypocrisy of the GB, yet he now claims that Kent's site and others are unacceptable because they trash the GB. Why?"

Knowing Ray, I believe that his concern is not the strong serious criticism of the Watchtower Society, but the extremism with which some do this.

"Now he seems to say that only he can express these thoughts!"

His comments, as you quoted them, say nothing of the kind. He simply gave his opinion about some sites that do not present the facts in ways he finds acceptable to host his material.

"Kent and Randy are, well, just too radical."

He said nothing about Randy's site. The facts are: http://www.freeminds.org/sales/menuframes.htm Where Randy carries and offers both of Ray's books.

"WE HAVE BEEN FUCKED WITH!"[/b]
You are correct. More so than I ever realized. A few months ago, I visited with some Bethelites and posted about it here ... last June or July ... where some on the GB do not even believe in the religion, and feel that the whole religion needs to be scraped and started over from Genesis 1:1. Other GB members know things are wrong, and do not care.
However, only Ray Franz ... to date ... has had the integrity to stand by his principles, leave, and write two very damning books that have helped free many. Given this, I believe his words, appearing to be quoted in part, need to be cut some slack ... and not read into them what they simply do not say.
[quote]"You never taught a son or daughter lies. You never lost a child to a false blood teaching. You never cried with and stood behind a child who was spiritually dying because of the Watchtower! Maybe this is why we are more angry than you could ever be! A parent remembers, and continues to bleed!"

Ray and Cynthia, in accordance with the same Watchtower teachings, prior to his joining the GB, forsook even having children to cry over ... and they will never even have one child ... so their grief is of a different type. Their loss not the same. They were messed with too until too old to do anything about it. So, yes, your point is well taken, and the grief you and others who have suffered such serious losses is something only you can understand and know. I just don't know what more we could ever expect of him.

You post has given me something new to think about, and moreover, I appreciate your being forthright with your views, in spite of the fact that Ray Franz is a friend of mine. The only concern I feel is that anger, like fear, can cause us to see words and state-of-mind in others that are not there, or impossible to determine.

Raymond Franz's Betrayal

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