Posts by ChristFollower

43

Dont blame the witnesses, its the Bible...

by sleepy in

jw
friends

dont blame the witnesses, its the bible's fault.. well you can blame them for trying to stick to the thing, but belief in the bible is the main problem.. i've heard the gb and witnesses be called evil by some, as though they have gone out to hurt people on purpose.. but i doubt that this is true, at least in recent times.. no the problem comes from believing the bible is god's word and trying to interpret it and follow it.. what happens when you do so?.

you get the catholic inquisition,people burnt at the stake,you get jews fighting for a promised land, religious groups who let their children die and a host of other problems.. i ask a question.if you were god and were going to have a book written on how man should live, would you do it in such a way that if misinterpeted or taken too literaly or mistranslated slightly , could result in the death and suffering of thousands of people,and would enslave people to false religious beliefs?.

yes there are good points and principles in the bible, mainly the words of jesus, who didn't write any of it himself.. but a few good principles don,t outweight the bad done in the name of the bible through the past 2000 years.. the society has tried to follow the bible, and take it for real .in doing so they have had to take on beliefs and ideas that can ultimatly cause harm.. it is like me reading a instruction manuel for my car, that is a fake written by a non-expert.if i follow that manuel , although it may not be all wrong, some instuctions could be in error and cause damage to my car and risk injury to other people.. if people then come along after and say "well its not the manuel thats wrong , you've just misunderstood it , look if you do it this way,that way..".

ChristFollower

If I have a book on Mathematics, and it is teaching integer arithmetic (2+2 =4 and so on), and I come across a problem that asks what is 2+3? If I answer 7, is it the fault of the Mathematics book that I am unable to add? I don't think so, but according to your logic, it is.

The Bible did not tell JW's to let their children die.
The Bible did not tell Catholics to "steal" countries from native people.
The Bible did not tell Jews to go fight for a "promised land" in Israel.

Theirs is not an appeal to Sola Scriptura, but to a perverse interpretation of Sola Scriptura. JW's are clearly wrong about the blood issue, and it can be proven from the Bible. I am wrong that 2+3=7, and it can be proven from a Math book. We all know Catholics are wrong - so let's not go there. The Jews reject Jesus Christ, so do you think they are really following the whole Bible?

Why have a book that causes so much confusion?

The confusion is of those who refuse to follow God and His word instead of their autonomous human reasoning. The Bible is frankly repugnant to autonomous man. A better question would be: why should we have a book that causes no confusion? I mean, why do expect that God's revelation to man would be so simple that there was no confusion? Why do you place your human expectation on God?

God exists independently of time, and yet chooses to work within time to accomplish His purposes. God is through all space and through all time. Humans can barely comprehend such a being, and you expect his revelation of His infinite mind to not cause confusion to sinful, rebellious, willfully evil man?

I can

sincerely

believe that 2+3=7, but that doesn't make it so, and it doesn't make me complain that Mathematics should be easier. I don't complain when studying Calculus that the problem is that there shouldn't be something as complicated as Math. Questions regarding the Spiritual realm, and our eternal soul are complicated because the ultimate reality is complicated.

The Bible tells us that God became flesh and died to redeem us from our sins. This God-Man, this Jesus, is barely within our comprehension, are we to be surprised that the book that explains this cosmic event is not difficult for sinful creatures to understand?

43

Dont blame the witnesses, its the Bible...

by sleepy in

jw
friends

dont blame the witnesses, its the bible's fault.. well you can blame them for trying to stick to the thing, but belief in the bible is the main problem.. i've heard the gb and witnesses be called evil by some, as though they have gone out to hurt people on purpose.. but i doubt that this is true, at least in recent times.. no the problem comes from believing the bible is god's word and trying to interpret it and follow it.. what happens when you do so?.

you get the catholic inquisition,people burnt at the stake,you get jews fighting for a promised land, religious groups who let their children die and a host of other problems.. i ask a question.if you were god and were going to have a book written on how man should live, would you do it in such a way that if misinterpeted or taken too literaly or mistranslated slightly , could result in the death and suffering of thousands of people,and would enslave people to false religious beliefs?.

yes there are good points and principles in the bible, mainly the words of jesus, who didn't write any of it himself.. but a few good principles don,t outweight the bad done in the name of the bible through the past 2000 years.. the society has tried to follow the bible, and take it for real .in doing so they have had to take on beliefs and ideas that can ultimatly cause harm.. it is like me reading a instruction manuel for my car, that is a fake written by a non-expert.if i follow that manuel , although it may not be all wrong, some instuctions could be in error and cause damage to my car and risk injury to other people.. if people then come along after and say "well its not the manuel thats wrong , you've just misunderstood it , look if you do it this way,that way..".

ChristFollower

sleepy,

John is a thief because he believes the bible told him to do it,Jack is a murderer because the bible told him, Jill says your both wrong you should be con men

My point is that the Bible did not teach John to be a thief, The Bible did not teach Jack to be a murderer, and who cares what Jill says.

Saying that the Bible teaches something is not the same as the Bible actually teaching it.

What is your point though? What is your solution? Do you want to have all Christians killed? Do you want to have them all put in jail? Better have tried it before: Stalin, Mao. Millions of Christians were killed by the Russians (the old USSR) and by China. You know what? They could not kill faith. Christians are still here, and in those countries. Even Rome couldn't get rid of them.

Besides, western countries that are predominately Christian (countries of Christendom) are the wealthiest in the world. Hindus don't seem to have much money. The Muslims of Afghanistan are dirt poor, the USSR went under because it was literally bankrupt. Muslims in other countries only have money because of the oil that Christian countries buy.

I don't see "Athiest Associations" feeding the hungry - I only see Christians and other faith based groups doing it.

I'll take Christianity and the Bible over athiest countries any day.

35

Leadership is missing among the xJWs!

by IslandWoman in

jw
friends

i know the word, "organization" has a bad taste.

but it is a fact of life that to get anything done on a grand scale in this world, good leadership and organization are a must.. we lack organization, much of what is said and done is a hit and miss thing except for the u.n. problem.

thanks to those who took a lead and the others who followed their lead some damn good work got done!

ChristFollower

IW,

There's an anti-JW tract here:

http://www.carm.org/warning/warning.htm

43

Dont blame the witnesses, its the Bible...

by sleepy in

jw
friends

dont blame the witnesses, its the bible's fault.. well you can blame them for trying to stick to the thing, but belief in the bible is the main problem.. i've heard the gb and witnesses be called evil by some, as though they have gone out to hurt people on purpose.. but i doubt that this is true, at least in recent times.. no the problem comes from believing the bible is god's word and trying to interpret it and follow it.. what happens when you do so?.

you get the catholic inquisition,people burnt at the stake,you get jews fighting for a promised land, religious groups who let their children die and a host of other problems.. i ask a question.if you were god and were going to have a book written on how man should live, would you do it in such a way that if misinterpeted or taken too literaly or mistranslated slightly , could result in the death and suffering of thousands of people,and would enslave people to false religious beliefs?.

yes there are good points and principles in the bible, mainly the words of jesus, who didn't write any of it himself.. but a few good principles don,t outweight the bad done in the name of the bible through the past 2000 years.. the society has tried to follow the bible, and take it for real .in doing so they have had to take on beliefs and ideas that can ultimatly cause harm.. it is like me reading a instruction manuel for my car, that is a fake written by a non-expert.if i follow that manuel , although it may not be all wrong, some instuctions could be in error and cause damage to my car and risk injury to other people.. if people then come along after and say "well its not the manuel thats wrong , you've just misunderstood it , look if you do it this way,that way..".

ChristFollower

So you can do what you like, and still be a follower of Jesus?
And who,s interpretation is that?

I am not sure what you are talking about, Sleepy. I did not say that followers of Jesus could do whatever they want to. Followers of Jesus Christ are to obey his commandments. If someone claims to be saved, and yet lives an unrepentant life that is contrary to the Bible, we would say that he was not saved to begin with.

As for the Catholic Church, let us not forget that Martin Luther was saved when he was saved while in the Catholic Church Certainly not all Catholics are saved. But the Catholic Church has always subscribed to the Orthodox historic creeds regarding the trinity. That is something. The balanced approach is to affirm their confession of the triune God, but to repudiate their accursed teaching of Salvation through works.

I have no doubt that their are individuals (few though they may be) who are Catholic, and are also saved. This is because salvation is through Christ's finished work, through faith, plus nothing. Salvation is not through belonging to an Organization or Church.

The following is twisted JW logic:

John is a boy. John is a thief. Therefore all boys are thieves.

As obvious as it is that this is false logic, JW's use it anyway as follows:

John is a Catholic, Catholics are Christian, Catholics are apostate, therefore all Christians are apostate.

It is clear this logic is false, but is what JW's use. Here is another.

John claims to be Christian. John is a thief. Therefore, John and all Christians are not Christian.

This is also clearly wrong. But how about this:

JW's claim to be Christian, and claim to use the Bible. JW's are evil because they kill their children by denying blood, therefore all Christians are evil.

This also makes absolutely no sense at all. Blaming Christians, for what JW's do, when JW's specifically deny being any part of Christendom, is ridiculous.

14

does the bible condem smoking??

by master chief in

jw
friends

think about it if the bible says we must present our bodies as a living sacrifice to god and we must be holy because god is holy is that really possible, well i would say no and do you wanna no why "well im gonna tell you anyway".well think about driving our cars we r deliberately polluting the earth which god condems,and what about the food we eat which contaminates our bodies,which i think would really corrupt our bodies,and think about it we are imperfect according to the bible so how can we make ourselves holy.also imagine a jw has aids and then is prescibed a drug which can corrupt our bodies but helps the patient with his suffering (ie:ganga is given to aids sufferers to help them to regain appetite for eating)but i suppose that would be ok for that purpose.one more thing for the last few months ive been coughing a lot and i havent smoked for years but guess what i smoked a menthol fag today and voila my coughing dissapeared so do you think the fag helped to cure this problem mmmmm i wonder if that is a sin??

?

ChristFollower

Sola Scriptura. Where the Bible speaks, Christians should speak, but where it is silent, Christians should be silent. I agree that we shouldn't "fill in the blanks".

Smoking will not prevent Salvation, as the JW's piously assert.

I would recommend not smoking for health reasons, but it is a personal choice - like eating junk food all the time.

21

1 Timothy 2:5,6: Maybe the Greatest JW Travesty

by Room 215 in

with the pre-memorial drums beating through dubland, it brings to my mind how the jw insistence on a literal reading of the 144,000 in revelation 7 and 14 has poisoned their entire outlook of the new testament and the teachings of christ.. although they're the most aggressive proselytizers of christendom, it's no wonder they've cooked up a host of specious rationalizations to demur on invitations to participate in public debates: they must know that their position on this bedrock teaching of christianity, i.e.

that jesus died and was raised for all and in his position of hevenly glory, intercedes on their behalf.

there's no question that any attempt by jws to defend their ludicrous teaching in a public forum would subject them to embarassment and well-deserved ridicule, and expose their cultishess.. and this is but the tip of the proverbial iceberg: look what the literal 144,000 does to eviscerate the power of jesus illustration of the sheep and the goats; it compels jws to equivocate on other crystal clear christian concepts, i.e the sonship of god and leading of the holy spirit.

ChristFollower

Good points. It is astounding how many JW's aren't even aware of the implications of this. Bait and switch. "Reel 'em in with the Paradise thing, then tell 'em that Jesus is not your mediator, or saviour - we "anointed" are the mediator and saviour."

http://www.jwfiles.com/mediator.htm

*** w79 4/1 31 Questions from Readers ***
At a time when God was selecting those to be taken into that new covenant, the apostle Paul wrote that Christ was the “one mediator between God and men.” (1 Tim. 2:5) Reasonably Paul was here using the word “mediator” in the same way he did the other five times, which occurred before the writing of 1 Timothy 2:5, referring to those then being taken into the new covenant for which Christ is “mediator.” So in this strict Biblical sense Jesus is the “mediator” only for anointed Christians.

Remember who is in charge and who is directing the information, the Anointed Governing Body!!!

*** w79 11/15 26 Benefiting from "One Mediator Between God and Men" ***
20 What, then, is Christ’s role in this program of salvation? Paul proceeds to say: “There is one God, and one mediator between God and men [not, all men], a man Christ Jesus, who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all.”—1 Tim. 2:5, 6.

Notice the part [not, all men], that was inserted in the scripture quoted, by the "Anointed Governing Body".

*** Worldwide Security 1986, p110 The "Prince of Peace" Turns to Those Outside the New Covenant ***

And in our time, millions of the “other sheep” are already benefiting from the ministry of the new covenant, as rendered by the anointed remnant under the Mediator, Jesus Christ.

So the Anointed are rendering to the other sheep instead of Jesus directly.

** w89 8/15 30 Questions From Readers ***

Clearly, then, the new covenant is not a loose arrangement open to all mankind. It is a carefully arranged legal provision involving God and anointed Christians.
*** w89 8/15 31 Questions From Readers ***
The people of all nations who have the hope of everlasting life on earth benefit even now from Jesus’ services. Though he is not their legal Mediator, for they are not in the new covenant, he is their means of approaching Jehovah.

Hum...

***Worldwide Security 1986, p10 The Desire for Peace and Security Worldwide ***
Jesus Christ, is not the Mediator between Jehovah God and all mankind. He is the Mediator between his heavenly Father, Jehovah God, and the nation of spiritual Israel, which is limited to only 144,000 members.
According to the Society Jesus is the mediator only for the 144,000.

*** w89 8/15 31 Questions From Readers ***
Consequently, 1 Timothy 2:5, 6 is not using “mediator” in the broad sense common in many languages. It is not saying that Jesus is a mediator between God and all mankind. Rather, it refers to Christ as legal Mediator (or, “attorney”) of the new covenant, this being the restricted way in which the Bible uses the term.
Trying to explain this one by using the term "attorney"!

*** w89 12/15 30 Do You Remember? ***
• In what sense does Paul use the term “mediator” when referring to Jesus at 1 Timothy 2:5, 6? In this text, Paul uses the Greek word me·si'tes for “mediator,” which term has a legal significance, so he is not using this word in the broad sense common in many languages. Hence, Paul is not saying that Jesus is Mediator between God and all mankind. Rather, he is referring to Christ as legal Mediator of the new covenant, which laid the basis for Christ’s anointed followers to share with him in his heavenly
Kingdom. (2 Corinthians 5:1, 5; Ephesians 1:13, 14; Hebrews 8:7-13)—8/15, pages 30, 31.

Is this what Paul said? I don't see that in 1 Timothy 2:5,6.

43

Dont blame the witnesses, its the Bible...

by sleepy in

jw
friends

dont blame the witnesses, its the bible's fault.. well you can blame them for trying to stick to the thing, but belief in the bible is the main problem.. i've heard the gb and witnesses be called evil by some, as though they have gone out to hurt people on purpose.. but i doubt that this is true, at least in recent times.. no the problem comes from believing the bible is god's word and trying to interpret it and follow it.. what happens when you do so?.

you get the catholic inquisition,people burnt at the stake,you get jews fighting for a promised land, religious groups who let their children die and a host of other problems.. i ask a question.if you were god and were going to have a book written on how man should live, would you do it in such a way that if misinterpeted or taken too literaly or mistranslated slightly , could result in the death and suffering of thousands of people,and would enslave people to false religious beliefs?.

yes there are good points and principles in the bible, mainly the words of jesus, who didn't write any of it himself.. but a few good principles don,t outweight the bad done in the name of the bible through the past 2000 years.. the society has tried to follow the bible, and take it for real .in doing so they have had to take on beliefs and ideas that can ultimatly cause harm.. it is like me reading a instruction manuel for my car, that is a fake written by a non-expert.if i follow that manuel , although it may not be all wrong, some instuctions could be in error and cause damage to my car and risk injury to other people.. if people then come along after and say "well its not the manuel thats wrong , you've just misunderstood it , look if you do it this way,that way..".

ChristFollower

JT,

"Jesus has been with the church"
One simply question, Which One?

Good question. I get that a lot from ex-JW's. I wondered the same thing. You see, there is one faith, and there is one "church". But by "church" I (and Christians through the centuries) are not referring to a building, or even a building that contains a particular set of believers. The word "catholic" simply means universal. Within the universal church can be found the core teachings of Christianity.

The core teachings of Christianity are the Trinity, bodily resurrection of Jesus, the virgin birth, the physical second coming of Jesus, the Universal church, and so on. Without these core teachings there can be no Christianity.

Now, there can be denominational distinctives. My denomination believes in infant baptism, but we would not say that Baptists are not Christian because they do not baptise infants. We would say they are not correct, but it doesn't affect salvation, and is irrelevant to the Faith.

Denominations are what existed when the apostles lived. The gentile churches did not have to practice Jewish customs to be a good Christian, while the Jewish church could practice Jewish customs and still be good Christians. They were denominational distinctives that were irrelevant to the core of the Christian faith.

The Church universal has held to the core teachings of Christianity down through the centuries, in all cultures. This is part of the Church universal.

There are Christians in Baptist churches, Lutheran churches, Presbyterian churches, and even Catholic churches. But, not all people in the church are Christians. Do you see the difference? It is invisible in that individuals from different denominations, and different countries, and different times (ages) are part of the one body of Christ. Jesus sees it as one church from his viewpoint in heaven.

43

Dont blame the witnesses, its the Bible...

by sleepy in

jw
friends

dont blame the witnesses, its the bible's fault.. well you can blame them for trying to stick to the thing, but belief in the bible is the main problem.. i've heard the gb and witnesses be called evil by some, as though they have gone out to hurt people on purpose.. but i doubt that this is true, at least in recent times.. no the problem comes from believing the bible is god's word and trying to interpret it and follow it.. what happens when you do so?.

you get the catholic inquisition,people burnt at the stake,you get jews fighting for a promised land, religious groups who let their children die and a host of other problems.. i ask a question.if you were god and were going to have a book written on how man should live, would you do it in such a way that if misinterpeted or taken too literaly or mistranslated slightly , could result in the death and suffering of thousands of people,and would enslave people to false religious beliefs?.

yes there are good points and principles in the bible, mainly the words of jesus, who didn't write any of it himself.. but a few good principles don,t outweight the bad done in the name of the bible through the past 2000 years.. the society has tried to follow the bible, and take it for real .in doing so they have had to take on beliefs and ideas that can ultimatly cause harm.. it is like me reading a instruction manuel for my car, that is a fake written by a non-expert.if i follow that manuel , although it may not be all wrong, some instuctions could be in error and cause damage to my car and risk injury to other people.. if people then come along after and say "well its not the manuel thats wrong , you've just misunderstood it , look if you do it this way,that way..".

ChristFollower

The Bible did not teach the Catholic inquisition. In fact, those that suffered were from the Catholics were Reformers like Martin Luther and John Calvin. The Reformed faith is still alive and well with us today.

Besides, am I responsible for what people did in the name of God hundreds of years ago? Of course not. Christians are not responsible for what the WT did in the name of God either.

I believe in God, and I believe in the Bible. You know what it says? It says to love your neighbor. What's wrong with that? If loving your neighbor and God is a crime, then I guess I'm a problem. Oooh. That dangerous Christian! He loves me! He must stop! It also says to not kill, to not covet, to not steal. Do you have a problem with not stealing?

If there is a satan, don't you think he would use those from within the church to most harm the church? All of the abuses you think of are not caused by God, or His word - they are caused by sinful men.
The strongest enemies of the church came from within the church.

Read Roman 11:2-5. "God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? "Lord, they have killed Your prophets, they have torn down your altars, and I alone am left, and they are seeking my life". But what is the divine response to him? "I have kept for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal". In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God's gracious choice. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the bsis of workds, otherwise grace is no longer grace."

When I left the WT, I was left thinking that there must be no truth (after all, the WT bad-mouthed Christendom so much what hope could there be?) The answer was, that even if everyone else would do what was wrong, I would do what was right. God has true followers in the earth. They don't belong to a single church, or organization. The reason why they don't, is because Jesus is in charge and leading the universal invisible church. The universal, invisible, church has been a teaching of the Church from the beginning.

There are followers of Jesus in Baptist churches, Lutheran churches, and Presbyterian churches.

There are also liberal Christians that aren't even Christian! Liberalism is what the WT criticizes and then paints a broad brush over all Christianity.

You want to know what is true? Read the historic Christian creeds. Jesus said that he would never leave his followers. It is a WT lie that Jesus abondoned the church for 2,000. Jesus has been with the church, and has been guiding it - the creeds are formalized systematic theology taught by His followers down through the ages.

Here is a link to the historic Christian creeds:

http://www.carm.org/creeds.htm

God bless

43

Dont blame the witnesses, its the Bible...

by sleepy in

jw
friends

dont blame the witnesses, its the bible's fault.. well you can blame them for trying to stick to the thing, but belief in the bible is the main problem.. i've heard the gb and witnesses be called evil by some, as though they have gone out to hurt people on purpose.. but i doubt that this is true, at least in recent times.. no the problem comes from believing the bible is god's word and trying to interpret it and follow it.. what happens when you do so?.

you get the catholic inquisition,people burnt at the stake,you get jews fighting for a promised land, religious groups who let their children die and a host of other problems.. i ask a question.if you were god and were going to have a book written on how man should live, would you do it in such a way that if misinterpeted or taken too literaly or mistranslated slightly , could result in the death and suffering of thousands of people,and would enslave people to false religious beliefs?.

yes there are good points and principles in the bible, mainly the words of jesus, who didn't write any of it himself.. but a few good principles don,t outweight the bad done in the name of the bible through the past 2000 years.. the society has tried to follow the bible, and take it for real .in doing so they have had to take on beliefs and ideas that can ultimatly cause harm.. it is like me reading a instruction manuel for my car, that is a fake written by a non-expert.if i follow that manuel , although it may not be all wrong, some instuctions could be in error and cause damage to my car and risk injury to other people.. if people then come along after and say "well its not the manuel thats wrong , you've just misunderstood it , look if you do it this way,that way..".

ChristFollower

The problem is JW's and those like them twisting the word of God. God is not at fault. You had a choice to be a JW, and you had a choice to leave if you wanted to. Don't blame God because the JW's lied to you.

It is very sad that JW's have messed people up so bad that now they don't want anything to do with God, but actually have a problem with anyone who does. I don't care what you believe. You can believe in little green men if you want.

But don't extrapulate JW's errors (they used the Bible to destroy the Bible) onto REAL Christians. If you do, you just take up the original JW cause of putting down Christians and further it from a different angle.

You have replaced JW non-belief in God and the Bible with athiest non-belief in God and the Bible.

22

Ray Franz is still a slave

by sleepy in

jw
friends

ray franz is still a slave!

(he seems a nice bloke though).

after reading the other post about franz today i though i'd like to talk about something that i feel about franz which can be said about many ex-witnesses.. you are still slaves of men!.

ChristFollower

Indeed. And if your presupposition is wrong, then all thinking that stems from it is also wrong.

Everyone must have a presupposition. I choose mine to be that God exists, and that the Bible is his infallible revelation to God. You have yours, and let's be glad our presuppositions are no longer that the WT speaks for God.