Posts by cnn77

10

Need Help...............

by deceit in

jw
friends

hi all, i have been lurking around this site for quite some time and enjoy reading all the posts.

but now i need some help........ me and my wife have not gone to a meeting for over 5 months now.

my parents are full bore jw's, father is an elder *shiver*.

Deceit wrote: "..I want my parents to respect my reasons for not wanting to be part of the WBTS just as I respect them wanting to stay, I know this sounds like it can happen only in a perfect world but I have to try. He mentioned to me once that even if this wasnt the RIGHT religion, its the closest one to it so he's happy to go along with that, typical stuborn temprament *sigh*"

Deceit - I think you might find yourself in a bit of a trick bag:

Even if your parents do want to respect you they will not be a llowed to. In my personal opinion you run a serious risk of being DFed if you are too forceful. It is better just to fade away and then work on just your parents over time.

The risk of being shunned should not be taken lightly... I am sure that others will criticize me for that view point but they probably have a totally different set of circumstances. You have to ascertain what is of greater importance: 1. Proving your point that the WTBS is not the "truth" or 2. not being part of the organization but still being able to socialize with your parents.

whatever choice you make there is a consequence......

10

Need Help...............

by deceit in

jw
friends

hi all, i have been lurking around this site for quite some time and enjoy reading all the posts.

but now i need some help........ me and my wife have not gone to a meeting for over 5 months now.

my parents are full bore jw's, father is an elder *shiver*.

cnn77

Deceit,

The answer you are seeking all depends on what you hope to achieve.....

Do you just want to be left alone to drift away?

Do you want to have the gunslinging match?

Do you want to convince him to leave the JWs?

You need to first figure out what outcome it is you want to achieve.....if you do not know this BEFORE you speak to him then you should rather just avoid the issue of speaking to him.

Please post back your answer and I can try to help with some suggestions.

15

Sincere doubt on the Sovereign issue

by Sincere Inquirer in

jw
friends

this is the first time i post to this forum in order to find new ideas about a doubt that has been torturing me.

no one in my congregation was capable of providing me with a reasonable explanation, and the society did not answered my letter about this sincere doubt of mine.

so, any help will be appreciated!.

cnn77

Messenger wrote:

"The only way to look at this is to reject what religion trys to get you to believe about God and THINK! When you do this you lose the guilt and all the other crap these rightous nuts have thought up. Live each day for all it is worth, help your fellow man to the best of your ability and if God has a greater plan I am sure he will want people like you instead of self rightous, born again, santimonious, God in my corner, turd heads"

Wonderful point. I have personally been through this issue also and have no faith in the rest of "Christian" doctrine as a result. I sat around feeling guilty for years as I thought I had a lack of faith and I lacked appreciation and so I beat myself up over it again and again. Then I posted a similar question on this site and I saw - Iwasn't the only person who couldn't see it.

Sincere Inquirer wrote: "This is the first time I post to this forum in order to find new ideas about a doubt that has been torturing me. "

I know exactly what you are going through SI. I would like to tell you not to beat yourself up over it but I know thats easier said than done because you have likely been in the truth for many years and the "Truth" is now your life......think friends, family, invested time when I say that.

All I can say is that Messenger is correct as I see it. THINKING is what got you into this state of torture. You will start saying that one should not be allowed to think.....I been there. But THINK and start to SEE that your thoughts are correct. If you can accept that your thoughts are correct - because the other stuff truly makes no sense at all then you will no longer feel guilty. Freedom from the guilt associated with doubt has been one of the most wonderful freedoms I have ever had - all in the last month. I would recommend that you take a look at some of the stuff AlanF has written on this very issue. It can be found at http://www.geocities.com/osarsif/index2.htm

9

Objection by an elder

by cnn77 in

jw
friends

i approached one of the elders with some of my doubts..... i mildly pointed to the fact that the wtbs had been errent in it's prediction of 1975 as well as some of the other "new light" issues.. his response was one which i have heard many times before: "the society is made up of imperfect men.

interestingly, in 99% of cases most witnesses will accept this explanation and feel guilty for questining a their fellowman ( the humaistic side of the organisation is unconscioulsy impressed onto the mid of the questioner).

at least that is how it has worked on me - until recently.. the next time i am fed this line of reasoning i would like to ask the following question: "ok brother elder, i accept that they are not perfect.

cnn77

I approached one of the elders with some of my doubts....

I mildly pointed to the fact that the WTBS had been errent in it's prediction of 1975 as well as some of the other "new light" issues.

His response was one which I have heard many times before: "The society is made up of imperfect men. They are not perfect."

Interestingly, in 99% of cases most witnesses will accept this explanation and feel guilty for questining a their fellowman ( the humaistic side of the organisation is unconscioulsy impressed onto the mid of the questioner). At least that is how it has worked on me - until recently.

The next time I am fed this line of reasoning I would like to ask the following question: "OK Brother Elder, I accept that they are not perfect. But if we both acknowledge that they are NOT perfect why will you punish me severely for trying to follow some ideas not sanctioned by the society? If imperfection is acceptable and I have to make allowances for it why can't you leave me alone?"

Anyone else get the gist of what I am trying to say? Has this cop-out answer by the elders been used on you yet? Anyone have any other ideas how I can answer? AM I treading on thin ice?

45

Organized religion, no religion, agnostic

by cnn77 in

jw
friends

i am new here trying to figure my way around...... i would appreciate it if you could say which of these fits you..... 1. still a jw.

2. if you dont agree with the jw doctrines any longer do you belong to another religious organization now?

3. are still religious and have no religious affiliation.

cnn77

WOW - thanks group. I appreciate your replies. As a newbie here I have to learn all the lingo etc - that was one of the purposes for the exercise.

Some of you asked me to say what I am. Well here ya go:

My personal views tend to be agnostic at this point in time - to explain my definition of that term: It seems logical to me that there is a creator. However I cannot find out anuthing about him/her/it that makes logical sense.

Officially - I am still a member of the " JW religion" and I still atend the occasional meeting when my wife really threatens me with bad things.

Any other questiuons with the exeption of my identity (for obvious reasons - I don't feel like not being able to talk with my family) I will be happy to answer you.

For those of you who answered that you are "religious" and ex-jw - how do you go about find out about God? Please don't just say read the Bible as I find many things in the Bible illogical and full of holes. Any sincere input in this is much appreciated by myself.

Thanks

45

Organized religion, no religion, agnostic

by cnn77 in

jw
friends

i am new here trying to figure my way around...... i would appreciate it if you could say which of these fits you..... 1. still a jw.

2. if you dont agree with the jw doctrines any longer do you belong to another religious organization now?

3. are still religious and have no religious affiliation.

cnn77

I am new here trying to figure my way around.....

I would appreciate it if you could say which of these fits you....

1. Still a JW

2. If you dont agree with the JW doctrines any longer do you belong to another religious organization now? If so which and why?

3. Are still religious and have no religious affiliation

4. Agnostic

5. Atheist

6. Other - if so what?

Thanks guys

41

back to basics

by cnn77 in

jw
friends

as soeone raised in the truth my whole life i am struggling with a basic doctrinal issue.

the issue has to do with universal sovreignty and the ransom sacrifice.

let me try to illustrate by way of analogy:.

cnn77

Blackman- you and I are in exactly the same boat.

I feel like such a faithless individual. I have sat around for many years now feeling like there was something wrong with me for feeling this way. How does one take feelings - exactly like those you expressed in your post to an elder and say: "help me through this please". I have tried but they look at me like I am Satan incarnate. If I could get past this I feel I might be able to get back to being active again. You put into words very well exactly what I feel....although many would say it is too "in your face".

Thanks

41

back to basics

by cnn77 in

jw
friends

as soeone raised in the truth my whole life i am struggling with a basic doctrinal issue.

the issue has to do with universal sovreignty and the ransom sacrifice.

let me try to illustrate by way of analogy:.

cnn77

WOW - there are some really deep thinkers out there. Apparently I am not alone in my "failure" to understand or appreciate the issue of Universal Sovreignty and the Ransom Sacrifice.

0.02 on the ransom: if Jesus knew he was to be resurrected in 3 days how big of a sacrifirce was it? If I had to sacrifice my son it would be HUGE since I being an imperfect human gnat do not have the power to resurrect him - if I did how big of a sacrifice would it be? Also was Jesus really dead? If so how did he witness to the wicked spirits according to Peter?

While many of the posters have indicated that they feel these are doctrines unique to JWs I am not using this thread as an opportunity to bash the Witnesses. This problem is issue is intrinsic to all Christian doctrine - I am just trying to make head or tail of it.

I am also quite intrigued that deep thinkers who leave the truth can join another "Chrsitian" religion. Is it because of the social side that they do it (due to the immense social destructiveness of disfellowshipping) or do they truly believe in these other religions? I guess many stay in the truth purely because of the social consequences of being DAed or DFed.

All I know right now is that I am very unhappy and I feel trapped and the consequences of continuing the charade and staying in are better than the consequences of being an outcast.

If I was ever to leave I could only be an agnostic and nothing else...

Unfortunately, I feel as though I will be labelled with the big "A" word if I truly express my view to my local elders and I am afraid of the consequences of that as ALL my family are Witnesses.

41

back to basics

by cnn77 in

jw
friends

as soeone raised in the truth my whole life i am struggling with a basic doctrinal issue.

the issue has to do with universal sovreignty and the ransom sacrifice.

let me try to illustrate by way of analogy:.

cnn77

Thanks for the responses....

Farkel - you have any links to the articles?

The concept of the freewill and man's fall is NOT unique to Witness doctrine - thats why the way I feel currently I could only become an agnostic (my definition of agnostic: I believe there was a creator....other than that we don't know anything further).

All "Christian (include JWs in that)" doctrine is based on fear. Serve God and live in paradise or in heaven. Don't serve him and you get destroyed or you you roast forever. What type of freedom of choice is that?

41

back to basics

by cnn77 in

jw
friends

as soeone raised in the truth my whole life i am struggling with a basic doctrinal issue.

the issue has to do with universal sovreignty and the ransom sacrifice.

let me try to illustrate by way of analogy:.

cnn77

As soeone raised in the truth my whole life I am struggling with a basic doctrinal issue.

The issue has to do with universal sovreignty and the ransom sacrifice. Let me try to illustrate by way of analogy:

Suppose you are a parent (a loving parent and your child is more precious to you than anything else) - any one of us right? Ok now suppose you have a party at your house. Lets say you take a friendly bet with your neighbor that the guests will not mke a noise after 10pm otherwise you will have to send your child next door to be killed.

Sounds really absurd right? I agree. No one would take a risk like that. But isn't that what we are taught Jehovah did?

He set things up so that Adam and Eve could have "freedom of choice". But if he is almighty and he is all knowing why would he risk the life of his son on their "freedom of choice"? I just can't come to terms with that. Surely he knew Adam and Eve would fail....(yes I know he chose not to forknow the future in this instance - per the insight book). Surely he knew the RISK?

I struggle very deeply with this issue - and its not just a Witness doctrine issue (it applies to all "Chrsitianity")- it has gotten so bad I am tending to be agnostic in my beliefs now.

I sat at the meorial this year and thought about this all night. It makes it very hard for me to be grateful for the "ransom sacrifice". Not one of us would risk the life of our child in this way - especially if we were the one making the rules.

I say this meaning no disrespect at all but it seems to be almost silly (probably because I am so confused in trying to make sense of it).

What am I not seeing?

Thanks for your thoughts on this.