Posts by careful

7

One possibility…?

by careful in

tornintwo's recent topic spurred me finally to post an idea i've been thinking about.

i don't see the gb as being financially greedy.

yes, they enjoy numerous perks like having their physical needs met by servants, jetting around the planet, living in a greater degree of comfort than fellow bethelites, getting frequent and sometimes expensive gifts from the r&f, etc.

careful

Tornintwo's recent topic spurred me finally to post an idea I've been thinking about. I don't see the GB as being financially greedy. Yes, they enjoy numerous perks like having their physical needs met by servants, jetting around the planet, living in a greater degree of comfort than fellow bethelites, getting frequent and sometimes expensive gifts from the R&F, etc. Tornintwo's comment that the GB members each work, likely hard in their own eyes, is real. While they run the religion like a corporate business, very problematic in many people's eyes (including mine), they do not act like the wealthy executives in major corporations with multiple homes, grossly flamboyant lifestyles, contacts with powerful politicians, etc.

I realize, on the other hand, that they are pretty dumb, like Vidquin put it in another post here "seven simpletons that have no clue" when it comes to theology or financial matters. Hence an idea that I've been throwing around. What if the GB made a major blunder in investing the millions they have at their disposal? That is, they lost millions in some bad venture that they thought, in their limited abilities, would yield a big return. Wouldn't their reaction in such a case be what we are witnessing? The desperation, the blundering attempts to hide their own stupid actions, the cover ups that they are so used to using that such maneuvers have become institutionalized practice?

So my request is this: does anyone here, possibly with contacts inside the secretive walls of bethel, have any info regarding this suspicion? If not, would anyone with such contacts make request and see if there's any substance to such a speculation?

Thanks in advance.

63

Why does the Watchtower leadership slap its own defenders in the face?

by slimboyfat in

take the case of rolf furuli.

i don't think there has been a specific thread on the hebrew verbs u-turn in the nwt, and how the society has responded to the work of perhaps their brightest and ablest defender in their history.

so here goes.. rolf furuli has defended jws on multiple fronts in many different settings, on issues ranging from chronology, mental health, doctrines, bible translation and the blood issue.

careful

SBF, I don't know what Furuli would say to your OP. I doubt if he would visit this website, unless he began to have doubts like so many here have. I do not know the man and I've never read his stuff (nor would I wish to). From what little secondhand info I've got on him, he seems like the typical JW apologists who filter all objective data thru their "the GB is God's sole mouthpiece" mindset. That will, of course, leave them unable to ever call the GB wrong about anything. Hence my earlier comment on this thread. I suppose they would have supported Miracle Wheat, the pyramids, Beth Sarim, the superior authorities of Rom. 13:1 being Jehovah and Jesus, organ transplants being cannibalism, blood fractions being unacceptable until they were OKed, etc. And they would have rationalized them all just like I stated Furuli likely did regarding his position on Hebrew verb meanings.

As for Forster and Wörnhard, here's what I've got on them. I learned of the former thru a member of this forum. I was surprised that he existed, but after looking over his website, I realized that, doctrinally speaking, he has stayed away from anything controversial that might get him into trouble with the org. One major question I have with Foster is that he teaches at a clearly religious college---what about Rev. 18:4? The latter is listed as a major elder who gave some sort of special talk that I saw years ago in a list of recorded talks that circulate so much in the Witness world. I think it said he was from the Italian bethel. He's also listed a s a consultant on Patrick Jamois's LinkedIin page, a guy who's clearly a Witness (https://ch.linkedin.com/in/patrick-jamois-74baa349). Then there are those links I put up in the earlier comment, ones which show he has genuine academic credentials. Like Foster, Wörnhard's research is on the church centuries after earliest Christianity, another nice, safe topic from the org's perspective.

If you know of anything of substance regarding Furuli's disagreements with the GB's views, I'd like to hear them. Is he an elder? He can't be too disloyal and be an elder. Do you know of any disagreement with WT theology or practice regarding Wörnhard? Wouldn't he too have had to have obtained his "worldly" education in violation of WTS policy? Or perhaps he was a convert and got his education prior to becoming a Witness?

Have you had dealings with Foster or are you just making your "very intelligent fellow" comment based on his website? I'm curious if he's an elder in his congo or whether his personal pursuits have prevented him from reaching that coveted position in the org.

Vidquin, wow, you are really living in wonderland! You might as well say you imagine how different it would have been if the GB all joined a coven and worshiped the devil directly! Seriously though, your 3 h's comment is thought provoking, as are SBF's notion on the Mormons. I've always had some trouble equating the Witnesses and the Mormons, but I'm not sure exactly why. Perhaps one factor is that the LDS church does not have much problem with educated members disagreeing with their articles of faith, at least not like the WTS. The homosexual doctrine so much in the news lately is a minor exception that will probably not affect them much since the LDS R&F reject homosexuality on a big scale. It violates their marriage worship thing too greatly.

7

1934 Yearbook

by why144000 in

jw
friends

i have a number of old books and am looking at selling a few.

in particular i have all the old yearbooks (from 1927?

) and i was looking at selling the 1934 yearbook.

careful

Look on eBay to see if it's selling and what it's going for.

63

Why does the Watchtower leadership slap its own defenders in the face?

by slimboyfat in

take the case of rolf furuli.

i don't think there has been a specific thread on the hebrew verbs u-turn in the nwt, and how the society has responded to the work of perhaps their brightest and ablest defender in their history.

so here goes.. rolf furuli has defended jws on multiple fronts in many different settings, on issues ranging from chronology, mental health, doctrines, bible translation and the blood issue.

careful

Wow! What a thread, like Blues Brother has put it, this is like SBF's old threads. Thanks SBF for coming back in your old mode and posting insightful and intriguing material. Just curious: do you have a rich wife or are you retired? How do you find the time to do all this research?

Vidquin's observation is also spot-on: "Now their theology is driven by seven simpletons that have no clue." No wonder they are in theological and financial trouble!

While the thread seems to have gone off on several tangents, SBF's original thought is worthwhile. People like Furuli probably see no contradiction in their behavior regarding things like this because their overall theological belief is that the WTS leadership as embodied in the GB trumps everything else. He may not feel any hurt or any sense of lost validity over his defense having been cast aside, but he may indeed view the whole thing as God's direction, as done "at the proper time." Unless Furuli would ever begin to question that overriding key assumption of the F&DS, I doubt that he would feel any betrayal here. In fact, in some way that may seem strange to us, Furuli may feel blessed by having been used by Jehovah because "that was the thinking then, brother"!

Now on this tangent of the revised NWT:
Does anyone know if Edgar Foster and/or Max Wörnhard were/are on the revised NWT committee? They are supposed to have formal training in biblical languages as well as university positions.

http://fosterheologicalreflections.blogspot.com
http://www.kps.unibe.ch/forschung/
https://ch.linkedin.com/in/max-wörnhard-24b48917

22

Recent announcement on literature placements

by dbq407 in

i find it interesting that the other night they announced that literature is not to be left indiscriminately.

they said to only leave literature if the householder engages you in conversation.

it used to be that they would try to get any literature into every hand of every person.

careful

keep their supposed numbers of placement up

Indeed, like those crazy "doorstep Bible studies" and the infant baptism they are working so hard to introduce.

9

Question about the Anointed. At one time they invited Anointed ones to Bethel for a special meeting.

by James Mixon in

what was the purpose for those meetings?

?

careful

Could it be that the following statement from the wikipedia article on the GB has been somehow misquoted or misunderstood, and that is how the story began?

"The Governing Body does not consult with the other anointed Witnesses whom it was said to represent when formulating policy and doctrines or approving material for publications and conventions"

Just a thought.

58

Now you don't even have to go to the Kingdom Hall - ALL meetings to be recorded & available on jw.org (if you have a password)

by sir82 in

jw
friends

latest boe letter:.

october 22, 2015. to all bodies of eldersre: use of jw stream.

dear brothers:we are writing to inform you that arrangements are being made for video recordings ofcongregation meetings, circuit assemblies, and conventions to be uploaded to jw stream (accessibleat http://stream.jw.org) in various languages.

careful

Excuse my ignorance. Does anyone know what a "pregroup," mentioned several times in the letter, is? It must have come about since my fade.

17

Other Religious Groups Critical of Higher Education

by Wild_Thing in

jw
friends

i was reading an essay online about how witnesses are critical of higher education and discourage it.

the editor's note said there are other conservative religious groups that hold the same view towards education.. there are?

do any of you know of any religious group that works as hard as the jws at keeping their members stupid?.

careful

Right on, joe134cd! But I don't know about puters and cells.

When I was active in the ministry, I had some conversations with members of the Plymouth Brethren. They are divided into two groups, Open and Exclusive, and the latter group is pretty much anti-education. In some ways they are like JWs but doctrinally there are some big differences, like hellfire and the trinity. As for their view toward higher education, this chap's article from the University of Worcester is informative:

https://eprints.worc.ac.uk/241/1/EXCLUSIVES.pdf

Hope this helps. Cheers.

BTW, the Christadelphians go back to before Russell's day and thus cannot be an offshoot of the Russellites.

20

2015-10/10/ Field Service Report Slips-S-4-E!

by Atlantis in

if this has already been posted just delete this post!.

2015 10/10/ field service report slips-s-4-e. .. click the green download button.. http://wwwb.fileflyer.com/view/kpifhby.

.. .. wtunderground!.

careful

The comments section? Well, you know, it's for things like these:

"None of my Bible studies can understand the overlapping generations thing. I can't either. How can I teach this?"

"Have you finally given up on the 607 thing?"

"My studies need a list of fractions of blood that are acceptable ... and why those and not others."

5

Meetings, Ministry and Modification of the Flesh

by slimboyfat in

sociology of the body is a popular topic for critical analysis.

i wonder if a general survey has been undertaken in relation to watchtower's exercise of authority over the bodies of adherents.

it occurs to me they exercise authority over the body in four main ways: appearance, private practice, public performance, and location.

careful

What does this mean?

Avoid the "pioneer walk".

I know of one CO who set the example of not closing his eyes in public prayer when publishers would take him out to a restaurant for lunch. He would say a prayer in conversation, looking around the table at everyone, and then, along with his wife, would begin eating. We all looked at each other and began eating too. He cited Matt. 6:1, 5 as support. Granted this is perhaps unusual, but at least one WTS authority figure modified the usual practice.

Aren't men, even elders, in the UK allowed to grow beards, or has this changed since I faded? I was in one liberal congo in the States where one young married brother had a beard and the elders used him to read the WT, carry microphones, offer prayer, etc. Everyone knew that he wanted to look older than he was since he'd married a sister who was 15 years his senior.

I used to not sit up straight in my chair as did others and nobody ever spoke to me about it, even in non-liberal congos.