careful

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Posts by careful

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  29

  Canada, Quebec: a lawsuit will soon begin against the Watchtower

  by yalbmert99 in

  1. watchtower
  2. child-abuse

  yesterday, there was a court sitiing before the pedophilia lawsuit really starts in quebec(canada) on december 17-18, when it will be presented to the court for acceptance.

  see article in french:.

  https://www.lapresse.ca/actualites/justice-et-faits-divers/actualites-judiciaires/201811/28/01-5205878-les-temoins-de-jehovah-defendent-leur-traitement-des-cas-dagressions-sexuelles.php.

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  careful

  Thanks for the post. This needs to be followed.
  
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  23

  Why does WT rarely reference creationist scientist?

  by Sanchy in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  in watching the latest video in the series "was it designed?

  " at tv-dot-jw-dot-org, i got to wondering why is it that watchtower hardly references scientist that are creationist.

  i know its only a minority from that group, but there are enough out there for them to reference from.

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  careful

  Another, perhaps overlooked factor, is that some Writing Department brother once quoted such a creationist in an article that made it into publication, Jerry Bergman. Bergman is an ex-Witness who is highly critical of the org, and quoting such ones in the publications is real no-no. Oops!

  But I think the other comments above are on the mark. Org policy has long been to distinguish themselves from, and be independent of, the churches as much as possible, and creationists are major Fundamentalists. It's like the org's reluctance to use terms like "New Testament" and "the afterlife." They'll use them rarely for the benefit of non-believers, but generally avoid them in order to be different.

  OGTG and RB: agreed!
  
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  3

  Selling off those Kingdom Halls.

  by Lost in the fog in

  1. social
  2. current

  the value of the property if sold will no doubt will return to the governing body.

  .

  https://www.cowichanvalleycitizen.com/news/dont-choose-hall-on-a-whim-town-lake-cowichan-cao-warns/ .

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  careful

  Worked fine for me. This place is in BC, Canada.
  
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  13

  Ken Cook's Biography

  by Iamallcool in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  https://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/watchtower-study-january-2019/new-member-governing-body/ .

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  careful

  A tiny blurb indeed, totally lacking depth. So then it fits right in with the current the current GB and their mindset.
  
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  8

  Help needed finding an old WT article

  by careful in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i no longer trust the search engine at the official jw website since they have quietly modified, purged, and expunged—or simply made no longer available—so many old works/pubs., so i'm asking for help finding an old article that likely predates the late 1970s (?).

  i think it was an article rather than in a book, but i can't be sure.

  the article's focus was on what it means for the anointed to be declared righteous.. it's important, i suspect, for grasping the view that whatever the gb decide is completely god-directed, so that, in effect, even though the org might officially deny it, the gb are viewed as infallible in practical terms.

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  careful

  Since yesterday I checked further on Matt. 18:18. Most so-called “literal” translations from the past do not translate the future perfect tense literally there. An exception is Benjamin Wilson’s Emphatic Diaglott: “will be as having been bound … loosed.” I mentioned Charles B. Williams’ NT translation of 1937. He was known for having paid special attention to Greek verbs and for trying to bring out the full flavor of them. It reads here, “must be already forbidden … must be already permitted in heaven.” This use of the future perfect tense is found in a similar context earlier in Matthew, where Jesus gives Peter the keys of the kingdom and tells him that “whatever you forbid on earth must be what is already forbidden … and … permitted in heaven” (16:19), C. B. Williams again.

  The New American Standard Bible which began to come out in 1960, and has gone through multiple revisions, has the 18:18 passage rendered quite literally: “whatever you shall bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; whatever you shall loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven” (1973 ed.). So too does the NET Bible of 1996 on: “will have been bound … released.” Not quite as literal but conveying the thought is the Holman Christian Standard Bible which reads, “is already bound … is already loosed.” Two other conservative translations put the literal rendering in their footnotes but retain the standard rendering in their main text: the NIV (beginning only with the 1983 ed.) and the English Standard Version (2001).

  Interestingly, two recent one-man translations done by well-known scholars both render the passage literally. N. T. Wright (2011) has “will have been tied up … will have been untied.” David Bentley Hart (2017): “will have been bound… will have been unbound.” Whether this use of a literal rendering will catch on overall remains to be seen.

  The point of the passage as it literally reads is that whatever Christ’s real disciples decide (in groups according to the passage’s context) on earth will have already been decided in heaven. That is, God so directs them that whatever decisions they make, God has already made those decisions for them, and he thus guides them to come to his already determined conclusions on earth.

  Brief mention should be made about why most scholars do not render the Matt. 16 and 18 passages literally. The future perfect tense only occurs in two other places in the NT, Luke 12:52 and Heb. 2:13. In those instances nobody seems to want to render them as “shall have been divided” and “shall have put trust in him.” It should also be noted, however, that that cumbersome literal translation is what those two passages literally say.

  The recent NWT revision changes Fred Franz’s older rendering(s) with “will be things already bound … already loosed in heaven” (with a similar change at 16:19). One could see the influence of the HCSB and C.B. Williams with the new “already” present, and indeed that may be one factor at work. I cannot help but wonder how much the view that the anointed and especially the GB view themselves as “perfect, without sin” for which thefallguy has provided the reference above, was also at work, because whatever decisions they come up with, in their minds, have already been determined in heaven. That brief statement in the ’74 WT reflects a viewpoint from a larger article (or book statement) that I distinctly remember reading when I was in. THAT is the article I want to now access. I’m wondering whether the org has “adjusted” their currently available indices so as to cause a researcher difficulty in locating it. Again, I will be grateful to anyone who can provide the ref to that larger exposition.

  The GB, past and present, do not, of course, broadcast their true feelings and motivations. Yet by studying their past statements it is possible for an observer to see some of the hidden thinking behind their regularly secretive behavior. It would cause them problems if they were to proclaim today that they still believe in Franz’s idea that they are “perfect, without sin” in Jehovah’s eyes, just like it would cause them problems to regularly harp on the Bible’s view of the role of women, as subservient to that of men. But the fact that they do not dwell on a matter does not mean it is not at work in their minds, even quite heavily. If we are going to understand the way they think, and thus their history, we need to seriously pay attention to the things that motivate them, like this bit of Fred Franz’s theology, which appears to have been, and still is, heavily at work among them.
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  25

  Elders' new direction.

  by lastmanstanding in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  there's been a change.

  a rather big one.

  and the kevin bunkers of the world beware.. jw elders no longer need to "turn the other cheek".. in the governing bastard's desperation, they have given a new directive to elders.

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  careful

  LMS, do you have a link or document substantiating this claim or is it yet another rumor so common in the Witness world?
  
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  8

  Help needed finding an old WT article

  by careful in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i no longer trust the search engine at the official jw website since they have quietly modified, purged, and expunged—or simply made no longer available—so many old works/pubs., so i'm asking for help finding an old article that likely predates the late 1970s (?).

  i think it was an article rather than in a book, but i can't be sure.

  the article's focus was on what it means for the anointed to be declared righteous.. it's important, i suspect, for grasping the view that whatever the gb decide is completely god-directed, so that, in effect, even though the org might officially deny it, the gb are viewed as infallible in practical terms.

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  careful

  Many thanks to those who have responded so far.

  SBF, I don't think that that's the ref because I remember FF went on at some length with that Romans passage, tying together the various notions there, in the vein "Who can find fault with the anointed because it's God who has declared them righteous?" I'll look over that 71 WT later. Nice to see you responding...
  

  the fall guy, that ref to "Jehovah God ... views them as being perfect, without sin" is in tune with what I remember, but the art. (or book?) I'm thinking of went on at some length expounding the Romans passage and stating the same perfection thing in more detail, so your ref is not the main one. However, that such a statement could be said in 1974, probably indicates that the art./book I'm looking for predates 1974, so a special thanks for that.
  

  blondie, yes, recently GB II has sort of changed their tune a bit, indirectly inferring that they could be wrong perhaps, but they have not really come out and said that. Instead they use that strange language about "whether these appear sound ... or not." And yes, FF's old view that I'm looking for is certainly shown to be false by Peter's sins. The validity of the org's thinking is not the issue on which I am focusing. We know that often has been shown to be wrong. I'm simply trying to reconstruct some dominant but—on the surface anyway—under-emphasized thinking that influenced decisions in WTS history, and I strongly suspect that one was this notion FF had about the anointed being "perfect, without sin" (according to the ref. that the fall guy has provided) due to Jehovah's having "declared them righteous." That Isaiah passage is the one that says "No weapon formed against you will succeed" etc., so it would tie in to the notion of them being "perfect" and unassailable, and again, it has a ref at its end to Jehovah declaring them righteous.

  As for the Matt 18 passage, the Greek is a bit odd. It uses the rare future perfect tense and very few translators render it literally. I'll have to check, but FF may have played with his translations somewhat from earlier NWT renderings to later ones. If I recall correctly, and I can't check this right now, but Chas. B. Williams' NT translation is one of the few that renders the Greek literally there. It's significant as to the meaning. Anyway, FF may have used this passage too in that article or book ref that I can't remember.

  btlc, thanks for the ref. I looked it over, but it does not expound Rom 8:31-34 like I remember, nor are any claims made about the anointed being perfect and sinless.

  Does anyone know how to DL material from the official JW webpage? It's not in the sort of format that others use where you can simply DL what is put up as a pdf.
  

  Looking forward to the further input of those who have already responded, as well as others, until the mystery is solved.

  
  
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  8

  Help needed finding an old WT article

  by careful in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i no longer trust the search engine at the official jw website since they have quietly modified, purged, and expunged—or simply made no longer available—so many old works/pubs., so i'm asking for help finding an old article that likely predates the late 1970s (?).

  i think it was an article rather than in a book, but i can't be sure.

  the article's focus was on what it means for the anointed to be declared righteous.. it's important, i suspect, for grasping the view that whatever the gb decide is completely god-directed, so that, in effect, even though the org might officially deny it, the gb are viewed as infallible in practical terms.

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  careful

  I no longer trust the search engine at the official JW website since they have quietly modified, purged, and expunged—or simply made no longer available—so many old works/pubs., so I'm asking for help finding an old article that likely predates the late 1970s (?). I think it was an article rather than in a book, but I can't be sure. The article's focus was on what it means for the anointed to be declared righteous.
  

  It's important, I suspect, for grasping the view that whatever the GB decide is completely God-directed, so that, in effect, even though the org might officially deny it, the GB are viewed as infallible in practical terms. In the article, doubtlessly the product of their lone prophet of the time Fred Franz, he used the passage at Rom. 8:31 through the first sentence in v. 34. He may have also included the passage at Is. 54:17, since in the last passage, near the end, the words "And their righteousness is from me" are found. He may also have tied in Matt. 18:18-20 which implies that any decision the anointed may make on earth has been made beforehand in heaven. But, as I recall, the stress was on that Romans passage.

  Any help anyone can provide in finding this article would be most appreciated. I suspect that this belief is why we have never heard any admission of error on the part of the GB of the sort that even people like Rutherford were wiling to admit in earlier days, with his "I made an ass of myself" statement over his 1925 and Beth-Sarim debacle.

  Thanks in advance.
  
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  33

  Door-to-door preaching as surveillance

  by john.prestor in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  i wanted to share some thoughts about jehovah's witnesses and their door-to-door preaching.

  door-to-door preaching is supposedly about gathering converts, but in fact, as we frequently discuss, doesn't actually bring that many "sheep-like ones" in.

  i want to suggest that a second meaning (what we call the latent meaning in academia) is facilitating surveillance of the congregants who attend some congregation.

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  careful

  Two thoughts: 1. Most Witnesses who believe it all would not want to celebrate holidays.

  2. "surveillance of the congregants," as you put it, is so imbued into the Witness life that it permeates everything Witnesses do, the field service/ministry included. The last should not be singled out as something special in this regard.
  
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  23

  Noah 'warning the people'

  by KW13 in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  am i imagining this?at the kingdom hall we were told many times that noah warned the others about the coming flood and was ridiculed but actually there is no evidence of this in the bible!there is however evidence to the contrary.

  matthew 24:37-39.

  37 as it was in the days of noah, so it will be at the coming of the son of man.

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  careful

  The belief that Noah preached, warning people of the coming flood, was common in the non-biblical Jewish literature at that time. If you want to read what his supposed message was, see Josephus Antiquities 1.74, and the Jewish Sibylline Oracles 1.182-90). It's just like Jannes and Jambres' names as the Egyptian priests who opposed Moses. Such traditions arose among the fertile minds of Jews at the time, trying to fill in what the Bible does not say. The author of 2 Peter 2:5 picked up on this, like the writer of 2 Tim. 3:8 did on Jannes and Jambres, but there's nothing in Genesis or Exodus of these kinds of details. Plenty of extra-canonical literature had arisen among the Jews at that time, and some NT writers included bits of it. Later rabbinic literature also includes such things.