Posts by stev

19

Would an Book on Rutherford really be worthwhile?

by VM44 in

i have to make a decision now as to continue researching judge rutherford with a view of writing a book, or just let him go (after all, he died 63 years ago!

what do people here think?.

would a book about rutherford be a worthwhile project?

stev

Charlton Heston as Charles Taze Russell.

19

Would an Book on Rutherford really be worthwhile?

by VM44 in

i have to make a decision now as to continue researching judge rutherford with a view of writing a book, or just let him go (after all, he died 63 years ago!

what do people here think?.

would a book about rutherford be a worthwhile project?

Here is an actor that could play Rutherford. Paul Sorvino. He played the TV preacher in the movie Oh,God! with John Denver and George Burns. He also has starred in gangster movies. He is tall and heavy-set, with an imposing physical presence, and capable of a violent temper.

Steve

19

Would an Book on Rutherford really be worthwhile?

by VM44 in

i have to make a decision now as to continue researching judge rutherford with a view of writing a book, or just let him go (after all, he died 63 years ago!

what do people here think?.

would a book about rutherford be a worthwhile project?

stev

Yes, I think a screenplay would be a better idea. Include Russell in it too. Make it like the Warren Beatty movie of the Russian Revolution. Or Animal Farm. Or Elmer Gantry, or the Apostle. Scenes included could be:

Russell preaches before thousands. He denounces the churches, preaches against the Trinity and hellfire, and preaches a kingdom on earth when God will save all mankind. His books are burned. The Miracle Wheat incident. His encounters with other women as told by his wife. They separate. Their divorce trial. Refuses to pay more alimony. The scandalous headlines. He preaches to 5000 Jews in the Hippodrome and supports Zionism. His world tours. The movie-slide show PhotoDrama, 8 hours long, shown around the world. He preaches that Armageddon is approaching. 1914. Macmillan says that this will be his last discourse because he is going home. Russell asks him to preach later, which Macmillan reluctantly is able to do. Russell announces that the Gentile TImes have ended. The Roman toga scene. Russell's death scene in a train. His funeral attended by 1000s. Maria Russell attends. Rutherford's oration, telling that Russell kissed him and told him he loved him. Rutherford, Macmillan, and VanAmburgh conspire together to take over. They plot and manuever behind the scenes. The presidential election - Rutherford only is nominated. Rutherford ousts four Board members. Johnson and the Board argue with Rutherford at the table. He attempts to physically evict Paul S. L. Johnson from Bethel in front of the whole Bethel family. The Finished Mystery. They go to prison. Millions now living will never die. Beth-Sarim. He attempts to take control of the congregations, causing many to leave. He calls them Jehovah's Witnesses. Witnesses die in concentration camps in Germany. Refuse to salute Hitler. More court trials. The Moyle trial. Include scenes of Rutherford at the Bethel table, tongue-lashing others, using vulgar language. His womanizing. His bodyguards. His spy network. Scenes preaching while he is drunk. Hint at alcoholism. His phonograph records. Drinking beer at Bethel. His death scene. His funeral, only four attending.

Anthony Hopkins should star in this movie, find him a role. Who should play Rutherford? Paul S. L. Johnson (Hopkins might be good here)? Russell? Maria Russell?

Steve

123

1 Timothy 2:6

by defd in

.

i was wondering why the new world translation says corresponding ransom , where as others do not.

anyone know where i can go and get a translation from greek to english.. d.

stev

Here is the meaning of the Greek word "lutron" :

http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3083

Strong's Number: 3083 lu/tron
Original Word Word Origin
lu/tron from (3089)
Transliterated Word Phonetic Spelling
Lutron loo'-tron
Parts of Speech TDNT
Noun Neuter 4:328 & 4:340,543
Definition
the price for redeeming, ransom
paid for slaves, captives
for the ransom of life
to liberate many from misery and the penalty of their sins

Translated Words
KJV (2) - ransom, 2;
NAS (2) - ransom, 2;

Verse Count
KJV NAS
Matthew 1
Mark 1
Matthew 1
Mark 1

Here is the meaning of the Greek word "antilutron":

http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=487

Strong's Number: 487 a)ntiðlutron
Original Word Word Origin
a)ntiðlutron from (473) and (3083)
Transliterated Word Phonetic Spelling
Antilutron an-til'-oo-tron
Parts of Speech TDNT
Noun Neuter 4:349,543
Definition
what is given in exchange for another as the price of his redemption, ransom

Translated Words
KJV (1) - ransom, 1;
NAS (1) - ransom, 1;

Verse Count
KJV NAS
1 Timothy 1
1 Timothy 1

Translations of 1 Tim. 2:6 :

1 Timothy 2:6

The Holy Bible, New International Version®: who gave himself as a ransom for all men - the testimony given in its proper time.
The American Standard Version: who gave himself a ransom for all; the testimony [to be borne] in its own times;
The New American Standard Bible: who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.
The King James Version (Authorized): Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
The New King James Version: who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,
The Revised Standard Version: who gave himself as a ransom for all, the testimony to which was borne at the proper time.
The New Revised Standard Version: who gave himself a ransom for all - this was attested at the right time.
The J.B. Rotherham Emphasized Bible: Who gave himself a ransom in behalf of all, - the testimony, in its own fit times:
Young's Literal Translation: who did give himself a ransom for all -- the testimony in its own times --
International Standard Version: He gave himself as a ransom for all, a fact that was acknowledged at the right time.

123

1 Timothy 2:6

by defd in

.

i was wondering why the new world translation says corresponding ransom , where as others do not.

anyone know where i can go and get a translation from greek to english.. d.

stev

In Young's Concordance:
under the word "ransom"
the Greek word "antilutron"
1 tim. 2:6

the meaning is given as :

"a corresponding price"

10

JAY DUBS: Russells Legitimate Children or Rutherford's Bastard Sons?

by Nate Merit in

(i'm posting this because i have read older threads in which the jw's are referred to as pastor russell's disciples, his spiritual children, etc.

also, disparaging remarks about russell here and there.

no doubt this topic has been discussed already, but perhaps you would like to join me in another go).

stev

Melton in his books on religion classifies the Adventist groups into William Miller's groups and Charles T. Russell's groups. Russell denied that he was ever an Adventist, however many in Miller's groups also denied this as well. He did have association with Christians from Miller's groups, like Wendell, Barbour, Storrs, Stetson. He learned much from them.
In my opinion, Russell made a fatal mistake in joining up with Barbour, and accepting his time proofs. Barbour had modified many of Miller's time proofs, and reapplied them to 1874 and 1914. Storrs, in reviewing Barbour's and Russell's views, warned and cautioned them against date-setting, and denied that Christ was now present. Storrs himself had been a major leader in the Miller Movement, in setting a date for Christ's return in 1844. He knew from experience the bitter disappointment resulting from date-setting. Unfortunately, Russell did not heed his former mentor Storrs, did not learn from the lessons of history, and thus repeated the mistakes that Miller had made.
He later separated from Barbour, but continued to hold to the invisible presence in 1874, had expected the rapture in 1881, and dogmatically predicted for years the end of society and the coming of the kingdom by 1914, selling books in the millions advocating his views. He did grow tentative as 1914 approached, yet many had already believed him. This focus on Armageddon and date-setting, by giving people unwarranted fears and false hopes, is harmful. Russell's mistakes need to be admitted and rejected.
The other mistake, in my opinion, that Russell made was the doctrine of "that servant." He had early on applied that to all Christians. He encouraged others to "prove all things", to exercise private judgement, and advocated the priesthood of all believers. However, he came to accept the view of his wife that he was "that faithful and wise servant." To his credit, he rarely if ever put it in print that he was "that servant", and wrote about it very little. He cautioned the brethren against preaching Pastor Russell instead of Christ, against seeing him in the Bible. However, although he preached against Babylon, the Papacy, and priestcraft, he allowed authoritarian religion to creep back in. It is true that many religions begin with a charismatic leader whose followers believe to be led by God, and Russell's group was not alone in this. But by applying scripture to justify power over other Christians, this authoritarianism which started small grew larger, more scripture was used, and the effects have lasted longer and stronger because of the Bible being used as support.
Russell's mistakes have not borne good fruit, and need to be seen for what they are.
Apart from these, and some personal failings such as his unhappy marriage, Russell had many admirable traits, and had views which counterbalanced and offset his more unfortunate teachings. He encouraged democracy in the churches in electing their officers, and allowed personal freedom in decisions and resisted legislating on private matters. He emphasized the love of God in saving all mankind in a future age soon to come. Much of his writing has a high moral and spiritual tone, appealing to reason, and yet capable of being poetic and soaring. He emphasized the need for character development and the Christian graces. He had a gracious and winsome manner in addressing the public, which can seen in his public sermons. He had a curious mixture of liberal and conservative views, and apocalypticism and rationalism, and he is not easy to categorize. While the Bible Students are today are often blind to his faults, the JWs would have been better off in maintaining more of his spirit, and his kind and gentler approach.

Steve

17

I've Got a Christmas Present Given by Pastor Russell

by Seeker4 in

jw
friends

i've got a really good collection of wts literature that i've been working on since the 1960s.

the cover is in rough shape, but the pages are perfect.

stev

I posted this poem "The True Church". It is probably the longest poem in the book. The churches visited are not stated, but I am concluding from the description of each that the first church is likely Catholic, the 2nd Episcopal, the 3rd Quaker, and 4th Congregational. The Pilgrim does say regarding churches that "all are good, but none is best." I am perplexed by the message of the poem, and not sure what action is being urged by it. Perhaps the poem is meant to be thought-provoking only. It does not answer the question of what church to join. Some could conclude that no church is needed. Russell taught that all churches were Babylon, which all should flee from, a radical message, which perhaps this poem was used to support. However, unfortunately, the movement that he started later developed the same evils as the churches that he denounced. The message "the one true church is never found" and "seek Christ its head" and "all are good, but none is best" is correct, but yet does not tell us how to live in this world with the inevitable mixture of good and evil, even within the church. Russell, localized the evil in the churches and the human organizations without, due to collapse soon in Armageddon. But this might have caused his followers to be ignorant and blind to the evil that was within in their midst. Steve

17

I've Got a Christmas Present Given by Pastor Russell

by Seeker4 in

jw
friends

i've got a really good collection of wts literature that i've been working on since the 1960s.

the cover is in rough shape, but the pages are perfect.

stev

THE TRUE CHURCH.

I.
ONE Sabbath morn I roamed astray,
And asked a Pilgrim for the way:
"O, tell me, whither shall I search,
That I may find the one true Church?"
He answered, "Search the world around;
The one true Church is never found.
Yon ivy on the abbey wall
Makes fair the falsest Church of all."
But, fearing he had told me wrong,
I cried, "Behold the entering throng!"
He answered, "If a Church be true,
It hath not many, but a few!"
Around a font the people pressed,
And crossed themselves on brow and breast.
"A cross so light to bear," he cried,
"Is not of Christ, the Crucified!

::page 14::

Each forehead, frowning, sheds it off:
Christ's cross abides through scowl and scoff!"
We entered at the open door,
And saw men kneeling on the floor;
Faint candle, by the daylight dimmed,
As if by foolish virgins trimmed;
Fair statues of the saints, as white
As now their robes are, in God's sight;
Stained windows, casting down a beam,
Like Jacob's ladder in the dream.
The Pilgrim gazed from nave to roof,
And, frowning, uttered this reproof:
"Alas! who is it that understands
God's Temple is not made with hands?"

II.
We walked in ferns so wet with dew
They plashed our garments trailing through,
And came upon a church whose dome
Upheld a cross, but not for Rome.
We brushed a cobweb from a pane,
And watched the service in the fane.
"Do prayers," he asked, "the more avail,
If offered at an altar rail?
Does water sprinkled from a bowl,
Wash any sin from any soul?
Do tongues that taste the bread and wine
Speak truer after such a sign?"
Just then, upon a maple spray,
Two orioles perched, and piped a lay,
Until the gold beneath their throats
Shook molten in their mellow notes.
Resounding from the church, a psalm
Rolled, quivering, through the outer calm.

::page 15::

"Both choirs," said I, "are in accord,
For both give praises to the Lord."
"The birds," he answered, "chant a song
Without a note of sin or wrong:
The church's anthem is a strain
Of human guilt and mortal pain."
The orioles and the organ ceased,
And in the pulpit rose the priest.
The Pilgrim whispered in my ear,
"It profits not to tarry here."
"He speaks no error," answered I,
"He teaches that the living die;
The dead arise; and both are true;
Both wholesome doctrines; neither new."
The Pilgrim said, "He strikes a blow
At wrongs that perished long ago;
But covers with a shielding phrase
The living sins of present days."
We turned away among the tombs--
A tangled place of briers and blooms.
I spelled the legends on the stones:
Beneath reposed the martyrs' bones,
The bodies which the rack once brake
In witness for the dear Lord's sake,
The ashes gathered from the pyres
Of saints whose zeal our soul inspires.
The Pilgrim murmured as we passed,
"So gained they all the crown at last.
Men lose it now through looking back,
To find it at the stake, the rack;
The rack and stake are old with grime;
God's touchstone is the living time!"

::page 16::

III.
We passed where poplars, gaunt and tall,
Let twice their length of shadow fall.
Then rose a meeting-house in view,
Of bleached and weather-beaten hue.
Men, plain of garb and pure of heart,
Divided church and world apart.
Nor did they vex the silent air
With any sound of hymn or prayer.
God's finger to their lips they pressed,
Till each man kissed it and was blessed.
I asked, "Is this the true Church, then?"
He answered, "Nay, a sect of men:
And sects that shut their doors in pride
Shut God and half His saints outside.
The gates of Heaven, the Scriptures say,
Stand open wide, by night and day.
So, then, to enter, is there need
To carry key of church or creed?"

IV.
Still following where the highway led,
Till elms made arches overhead,
We saw a spire and weathercock,
And snow-white church upon a rock--
A rock, where centuries before,
Came sea-tossed pilgrims to the shore.
My sandals straightway I unbound,
Because the place was holy ground.
I cried, "One church at last I find,
That fetters not the human mind."
"This church," said he, "is like the rest;
For all are good, but none is best."

::page 17::

V.
Then far from every church we strayed--
Save Nature's pillared aisles of shade.
The squirrels ran to see us pass,
And God's sweet breath was on the grass.
I challenged all the creeds, and sought
What truth, or lie, or both, they taught.
I asked, "Had Augustine a fault?"
The Pilgrim gazed at heaven's high vault,
And answered, "Can a mortal eye
Contain the sphere of all the sky?"
I said, "The circle is too wide."
"God's truth is wider!" he replied.
"Though Augustine was on his knee,
He saw how little he could see;
Though Luther sought with burning heart,
He caught the glory but in part;
Though Calvin opened wide his soul,
He comprehended not the whole.
Not Luther, Calvin, Augustine,
Saw visions such as I have seen."
While yet he spake, a rapture stole
Through all my still inquiring soul.
I looked upon His holy brow,
Entreating, "Tell me, who art THOU?"
But such a splendor filled the place,
I knew it was the Lord's own face!
I was a sinner, and afraid!
I knelt in dust, and thus I prayed:
"O Christ, the Lord! end Thou my search,
And lead me to the one true Church."
He spake as never man may speak--
"The one true Church thou shalt not seek,

::page 18::

Seek thou, forevermore, instead,
To find the one true Christ, its Head!"
The Lord then vanished from my sight,
And left me standing in the light.

17

I've Got a Christmas Present Given by Pastor Russell

by Seeker4 in

jw
friends

i've got a really good collection of wts literature that i've been working on since the 1960s.

the cover is in rough shape, but the pages are perfect.

stev

freeminds lists the 1912 edition at $400 retail.

17

I've Got a Christmas Present Given by Pastor Russell

by Seeker4 in

jw
friends

i've got a really good collection of wts literature that i've been working on since the 1960s.

the cover is in rough shape, but the pages are perfect.

stev

from ZWT jan 1, 1913 NEW POEMS OF DAWN Our attention was called to the fact that many of our readers do not know that the Book of POEMS OF DAWN recently published is quite different from the old edition. It does, indeed, contain the choicest poems from the old edition, but it includes many entirely new. We believe that every WATCH TOWER reader would be desirous of having this new edition if thoroughly aware of the contents. Its beautiful verses are very restful and helpful, well adapted to the various experiences of the Lord's people. As a part of His staff for His weary ones to lean upon they are a present help in time of need. The prices are extremely low and include postage--cloth-bound, 25c.; Karatol-bound, 35c.; India paper, leather-bound, 50c. [page 2]