I've decided to read the following books in my quest to get the truth (see below). Witherington seems the least scholarly and Meiers work the most daunting by far, but the quest for truth will be worth it in the long run.
At the end of the day we can't prove definitely one way or the other how much of the gospels is true or not but I at least want to weigh up the evidence on the balance of probabilities, without working from the a priori assumption that miracles are impossible and hence the gospels are fictions, which seems to be the case of many on this website, most of whom appear to have renounced faith in God and are hence predisposed to accepting and defending anything critical of the historicity of the bible. As I unquestionably believe in a creator I have no problem with accepting that the miracles and resurrection could indeed have happened as described in the gospels if all the other lines of evidence to assert them as true historical documents all stack up.
Who Was Jesus? (Paperback)
by N. T. Wright
A New Perspective On Jesus: What The Quest For The Historical Jesus Missed
by James D. G. Dunn. Dunn argues, against more liberal/skeptical scholarship, that the similarities and differences in the synoptic gospels are best explained by oral transmission of these events and teachings in the early church.
The Jesus Quest: The Third Search for the Jew of Nazareth (Paperback)
by Ben, III Witherington
A Marginal Jew: Rethinking the Historical Jesus: The Roots of the Problem and the Person, Vols 1, 2 & 3 (Hardcover)
by John P. Meier "The historical Jesus is not the real Jesus..."
yaddayadda
JoinedPosts by yaddayadda
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What happened between Jesus death & the gospels being written?
by yaddayadda inhi, i'm interested in researching this subject.
can anyone recommend any good books that offer critical theories on the origins of early christianity, specifically the content and creation of the gospels.
for instance, how much of the gospels is underlying historical truth and how much might be exaggerations that crept in through, say 'chinese whispers' in the time between jesus death and the writing of the gospels ?
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yaddayadda
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"Delivered From the Trap of the Birdcatcher" DC Demonstration
by FadingAway ina very convincing and timely demonstration on the dangers of the internet!
http://www.box.net/public/j2uoneqjfe.
if you can't get this to run, i will be more than happy to pm it to you if you can stomach it.
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yaddayadda
How come this was on the 'active topic' list when there was only 1 post, the original post? What determines whether a topic is 'active' or not?
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What happened between Jesus death & the gospels being written?
by yaddayadda inhi, i'm interested in researching this subject.
can anyone recommend any good books that offer critical theories on the origins of early christianity, specifically the content and creation of the gospels.
for instance, how much of the gospels is underlying historical truth and how much might be exaggerations that crept in through, say 'chinese whispers' in the time between jesus death and the writing of the gospels ?
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yaddayadda
Thanks for the information. I see that I am going to have to do a lot of research on this.
I can totally understand the sceptism about the miracles etc in the gospels. And it seems that the other synoptic gospels borrowed heavily from Mark.
What seems strange to me about this whole affair is that, according to various scholars, the dead sea scrolls proved that the book of Isaiah had hardly changed at all in about 1,000 years of writing, and persons like Sir Frederick Kenyon and other eminent intellectuals conclusively state that the NT has not materially changed much in many hundreds of years (I've read critiques on Ehrman's latest book. He shows that although there has been a bit of redaction and revisionism, it is not as nearly as much or as significant as he is making out), yet the sceptics are saying that pretty much the entire gospels accounts are just myths, complete fictions, that they somehow magically appeared in a relatively short space of time in a culture where great care was taken by scribes to accurately transmit holy writings, where there was a strong tradition of systematic oral memorisation techniques, amongst a people who were just about the last people on earth to believe myths and legends that all their pagan neighbours believed. I am asked to believe this despite the fact that for long streches of many centuries it is clear that the scriptures did not materially change. It just seems just as much an article of faith to brand the entire gospel accounts as complete mythological fictions than to accept that much of them may indeed be true.
Is it not the case also that the early church fathers going back to the second and third centuries quote extensively from the gospels as we read them today? Or have I got that wrong? -
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What happened between Jesus death & the gospels being written?
by yaddayadda inhi, i'm interested in researching this subject.
can anyone recommend any good books that offer critical theories on the origins of early christianity, specifically the content and creation of the gospels.
for instance, how much of the gospels is underlying historical truth and how much might be exaggerations that crept in through, say 'chinese whispers' in the time between jesus death and the writing of the gospels ?
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yaddayadda
PeacefulPete, Can you please refer me to the authors or sources (not personal opinions of persons on this heavily biased website) that discuss "the complex redaction history of the Gospels and the preGospel sources of many of the "sayings" that you say exist. This is what I am seeking help on. I honestly want to get to the bottom of this for myself, as objectively as I can (I am aware of my own biases and motivations to either believe or let go of Christianity) so I can make as informed a choice as possible. I realise this is an enormous subject.
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What happened between Jesus death & the gospels being written?
by yaddayadda inhi, i'm interested in researching this subject.
can anyone recommend any good books that offer critical theories on the origins of early christianity, specifically the content and creation of the gospels.
for instance, how much of the gospels is underlying historical truth and how much might be exaggerations that crept in through, say 'chinese whispers' in the time between jesus death and the writing of the gospels ?
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yaddayadda
Elsewhere, I can understand the scepticism but it seems unreasonable to just dismiss the historicity of Jesus. From what I've read, nearly all scholars and biblical historians accept that there must have been a person called Jesus and that there is a layer of truth underneath it all. The only question is how deep that layer is.
I'm not trying to defend the orthodox Christian view. I want to get to the bottom of this, or at least give all the various theories a fair trials. From what I have researched so far it seems to me that the new testament writings meet the hallmarks of genuine historical documents. Any objective historian would give them the thumbs up, except for 1 big thing: the miracles! If it weren't for the miracles in the gospels then evidently no one would doubt their historicity.
Re the Chinese whispers that you feel is the cause of it all, in response to your Apollo moon landings analogy, here is another analogy I've read:
# During the period when the Gospel writers wrote their accounts many eyewitnesses would still have been alive and would have objected if the Gospels were exaggerated in some way. This would be something like a group of people trying to fictionalise a whole series of events that happened during World War II. There are too many people still living who would be able to challenge inaccuracies.
# Similarly, as with the second world war the events that occurred were striking and significant, making long lasting impressions upon the minds of the people who went through the experience. This is even more so with the Gospels. The things that Jesus said and did would have had powerful impact and long lasting impression upon the memories of those who witnessed the events. The culture of Jesus' day held to `oral tradition'. People spent much time and effort in memorizing texts. Michael Green observes that many Jews memorized the whole Pentateuch and that there were Greeks who could recite large portions of Homer's Iliad (The Truth of God Incarnate, p. 124).
I'd like to find out more about the claim by this author Michael Green that there was a strong Jewish tradition of memorization. If this is correct then it would seem to run against the theory that so many mythological embellishments and supernatural fables could have been added to the Jesus story in such a short time through a 'chinese whispers' effect. Can anyone refer me to any sources? -
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What happened between Jesus death & the gospels being written?
by yaddayadda inhi, i'm interested in researching this subject.
can anyone recommend any good books that offer critical theories on the origins of early christianity, specifically the content and creation of the gospels.
for instance, how much of the gospels is underlying historical truth and how much might be exaggerations that crept in through, say 'chinese whispers' in the time between jesus death and the writing of the gospels ?
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yaddayadda
LOL That doesn't add up Elswhere. Just because there was a gap between when Jesus purportedly died and when the gospels were written doesn't mean everyone 'forgot' about him. There is evidence of a strong, memorized oral tradition. They didn't forget about him they just talked about him and didn't write it down for a while. It is stated that the gospels were written to capture Jesus essential sayings and deeds before the ageing earliest disciples and eyewitnesses died off from old age, to prevent the 'chinese whispers' effect.
Thanks Leolaia. -
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What happened between Jesus death & the gospels being written?
by yaddayadda inhi, i'm interested in researching this subject.
can anyone recommend any good books that offer critical theories on the origins of early christianity, specifically the content and creation of the gospels.
for instance, how much of the gospels is underlying historical truth and how much might be exaggerations that crept in through, say 'chinese whispers' in the time between jesus death and the writing of the gospels ?
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yaddayadda
Hi, I'm interested in researching this subject. Can anyone recommend any good books that offer critical theories on the origins of early Christianity, specifically the content and creation of the gospels. For instance, how much of the gospels is underlying historical truth and how much might be exaggerations that crept in through, say 'chinese whispers' in the time between Jesus death and the writing of the gospels ?
I've researched the claims that the story of Jesus contains a lot of elements borrowed from earlier pre-Christians pagan elements (Horus, Dionysius, etc) but have also read convincing rebuttals to that theory.
I'm satisfied that the overall accurate textual transmission of the scriptures is adequately proven.
Aren't looking for anything on the gnostic gospels particularly, having satisfied myself on those. Just the NT gospels.
Just constructive posts please. -
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DC, all but gave directions to the JWD site
by ocsrf in.
i found the dc very interesting this year do to my reading of this site.
i took note that the danger of the internet was menitioned no less than three times, once with a demonstration showing a brother who found a site by a innocent search of the web on a jw subject to the very last talk, concluding remarks and final "resolution" that consisted of 10 items with number 10 staying away from dangerous sites and chat rooms.. makes you wonder what the real story is behind that much attention being given to this problem iof theirs.. oc
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yaddayadda
Just wondering what your point is Myelaine? Could it be that when Jehovah says he will cast his 'net' over them, he meant the 'inter net' ???
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Greg Stafford releases JWD 3
by AliveinChrist ingreetings group .
i saw today that stafford is going to be releasing a third addition of his jehovahs witnesses defended publication at a pre-sale price, on his web site at http://www.elihubooks.com/ .
it will be of interest to those of us who have read his publications to see what changes will be in version 3 that were not in version 2, since the release of his three dissertations book, which was a more candid look at the history of the wt history and doctrinal changes.
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yaddayadda
Despite no longer being a JW and having read anti-JW doctrine material for years, I remain convinced that the JW's have got it spot on re the trinity, no hellfire, and no inherently immortal soul. It's just a pity there is so much creedal crap in amongst that lot.
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Do you think a nuclear weapon will be used in war or terrorism in our time?
by free2beme inwith all those nukes out there, and all the countries that have them or are making them.
do you think it is something we should expect, that in our lifetime a nuclear weapon will be used in war or an act of terrorism?
i personally think it is possible, and i think it would be the middle east that would see this happening.
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yaddayadda
Yep, I'm absolutely convinced we will see a nuclear weapon used in our time, sad to say. It's only a matter of time.