Lady Lee, that article is unscientific hogwash. It's not only almost entirely inaccurate about how the Watchtower is actually conducted, thus losing all credibility from the start as to the author's claim of attending numerous meetings, but the comparisons to Freud's '4 rules' are all tenuous at best:
1 Watchtower puts out a song book with over one hundred songs that have words and music which create a slow subliminal tone to relax the congregation. Not one song in this Watchtower song book, has an up-tempo beat like the songs sung in the Orthodox Church. Every song they play induces relaxation.
NONSENSE. ONE COULD SAY THE SAME ABOUT ANY CHURCH IN THE LAST TWO THOUSAND YEARS. AND THERE ARE INDEED SOME 'UP-BEAT' SONGS FOUND AMONGST THE KINGDOM MELODIES. THE AUTHORS JUDGMENT HERE IS ABOUT AS UNTRUSTWORTHY AS HIS DESCRIPTION OF HOW THE WATCHTOWER STUDY IS ACTUALLY CONDUCTED.
2 The way that Watchtower has created this left-to-right eye movement, is to have the compere standing in the centre of the stage reading one paragraph of the story from the study book and the narrator sitting off to one side, reading a bible verse after each paragraph. As the congregation watches, not only do their eyes continually move from left to right which stops them from listening and examining the words of the story to reject what they don't agree with, but if they are not watching, their ears will hear the words spoken by the compere on the right and the narrator on the left.
ABSOLUTE PIFFLE. THIS IS SIMPLY NOT HOW THE STUDY IS CONDUCTED WHATSOEVER, SO WHERE IS THIS 'CONTINUALLY MOVING FROM LEFT TO RIGHT' OF THE EYES OF THE AUDIENCE AND EARS HEARING FROM THE RIGHT AND LEFT? THE FACT IS THAT AFTER THE READER HAS FINISHED READING THE PARAGRAPH, HE SITS DOWN TO ONE SIDE OF THE CONDUCTOR FOR THE ENTIRE DISCUSSION OF THAT PARAGRAPH UNLESS HE HIMSELF ANSWERS UP. HE NEVER STANDS IN THE CENTRE OF THE STAGE AS THIS AUTHOR CLAIMS.
3. The leaders of Watchtower have designed their study stories to have the four hypnotic suggestions within the story they want their Jehovah's Witness followers to believe in and have added bible scriptures after one or two paragraphs, in order to give the compere and the narrator their job to do to create left and right eye and hearing movement to produce the hypnotic effect. These study stories are so important to Watchtower to establish a hypnotic effect in all Jehovah's Witnesses worldwide, that they insist to all the leaders of each individual congregation centre in every country, that they must not stray from using the study story in every meeting or change the position of the compere and narrator or leave out the use of the usher for the all-important question time, held at the end of each story. Watchtower head office in New York, supplies every Jehovah's Witness meeting hall in every city of every country, with new study books each month, so that every Jehovah's witness world wide is subjected to this hypnotic process every time they attend a Jehovah's Witness meeting at any meeting hall. Even the Jehovah Witnesses who come to your home in pairs to study with you, are told to study from the Watchtower booklet sitting with you at your table, and one of them will read the story and the other will read the scripture, so that the exact same hypnotic effect is at work on you, in your own home even before you actually decide to commit yourself to attending the local Jehovah's Witness meeting hall as a congregation member. Jehovah's Witness followers are usually beautiful God-loving people who do not have a clue that this is going on, but I assure you, several managers at the very top of the Watchtower organisation in New York, are fully in control of this sinister deception that is killing more than a thousand Jehovah's Witnesses every year.) Reference for this statistic:- "Blood On The Altar" by author, David A Reed.
MORE SHAMELESS PIFFLE. HIS CLAIM THAT BIBLE STUDIES ARE CONDUCTED BY A PROCESS OF ONE PERSON READING THE 'STORY' AND THE OTHER READING THE SCRIPTURE, THUS INDUCING A HYPNOTIC EFFECT, IS AGAIN, NOT HOW A TYPICAL STUDY IS CONDUCTED. I KNOW AS I WAS IN THE ORG FOR OVER 30 YEARS AND CONDUCTED MANY BIBLE STUDIES. THE READING OF PARAGRAPHS AND SCRIPTURES IS ALWAYS SHARED.
4. When the therapist's hypnosis session is completed, at a time immediately after the left-to-right eye movement has been stopped, the therapist must ask a list of at least four questions which cover each of the four versions of the hypnotic suggestion story, so that the person being hypnotised, begins to think consciously about what was done during the hypnosis session, to bring the newly-programmed belief out of the unconscious mind and establish it as a fully accepted conscious belief. This last part of the session is essential as it joins the conscious mind with the unconscious mind to expand the brain's total acceptance of the hypnotic effect.
This task is covered extremely well by Watchtower's use of the questions supplied at the end of each story printed in the Watchtower study magazine and the usher who Watchtower has instructed to walk the isle to extend the michrophone to those who wish to answer the questions.
ITS CALLED REINFORCEMENT OF IDEAS, OR INDOCTRINATION AND BRAINWASHING, NOT HYPNOSIS. AND EVERY CLASSROOM IN THE WORLD USES THIS METHOD FOR TEACHING, WITH VARIATIONS.
yaddayadda
JoinedPosts by yaddayadda
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Have you ever wondered. . . How the Question and Answer format got started?
by Lady Lee inthe question and answer from the paragraph format for watchtower study meetings has become a staple method for indoctrinating new recruits and maintaining control of the jws thought processes.. over the years i think they have played around a bit with the sequence of questions, readings and answers but the contenet has basically remained the same - ask the question, read the paragraph and give the answer.. so .
have you ever wondered who thought this might be a good method to conduct spiritual discussions?.
i never gave it much thought but i assumed rutherford came up with the tight control over discussions.. nope.
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yaddayadda
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Russell on prayer to Jesus & WTS charter? refers to worship of Jesus
by yaddayadda inhelp needed.
i believe that in one of the oldest watchtower issues someone asked ct russell whether praying to jesus was allowed and russell published his response to the effect that it was ok and russell said he sometimes prayed to jesus.
i'd just love it if someone could dig up the actual article for me as i want to show it to someone who doesn't believe me.
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yaddayadda
Pixies, seems you are basing your opinion pretty much on one source, ie, BAGD (whatever that is).
Of course proskuneo in relation to HUMANS can only ever mean "...do obesiance to, prostrate oneself, welcome respectfully...to human beings belonging to a superhuman realm... to a king...to the Church at Philadelphia."
But you are missing the point - there is a big distinction between the resurrected Jesus and a human authority figure that many prominent NT scholars have correctly taken into account: that Jesus is not merely a human, nor a mere angel who temporarily took on human form, but is the divine son of God, appointed by God the Father to the highest status in the universe other than Himself. As a divine being who is sitting at God's right hand and who, according to Revelation 15:13+14, receives the same reverence and glory as God (but not because he is God), he can rightfully be said to be 'worshipped' in a very similar manner to God the father.
You should do yourself a favour and read what certain scholars have to say on the subject instead of arrogantly dismissing them. They are not all biased Trinitarians. But since it's all "strictly commentary and contextual" as you assert then one's interpretation of what 'proskuneo' means in relation to Christ is completely derived from one's personal predisposition.
And try reading Hurtado first before contemptously criticising his 'binitarian' theory. -
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Russell on prayer to Jesus & WTS charter? refers to worship of Jesus
by yaddayadda inhelp needed.
i believe that in one of the oldest watchtower issues someone asked ct russell whether praying to jesus was allowed and russell published his response to the effect that it was ok and russell said he sometimes prayed to jesus.
i'd just love it if someone could dig up the actual article for me as i want to show it to someone who doesn't believe me.
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yaddayadda
Pixies, seems you are basing your opinion pretty much on one source, ie, BAGD (whatever that is).
Of course proskuneo in relation to HUMANS can only ever mean "...do obesiance to, prostrate oneself, welcome respectfully...to human beings belonging to a superhuman realm... to a king...to the Church at Philadelphia."
But you are missing the point, a distinction between the resurrected Jesus and an human authority figure that many prominent NT scholars have correctly taken into account (but you prefer to ignore or dismiss as not necessary). That is that Jesus is not merely a human, but is the divine son of God, appointed by God the Father to the highest status in the universe other than Himself. As a divine being who is sitting at God's right hand and who, according to Revelation 15, receives the same reverence and adoration as God (but not because he is God), he can rightfully be said to be 'worshipped' in a very similar manner to God the father.
But since it's all "strictly commentary and contextual" as you assert then one's interpretation of what 'proskuneo' means in relation to Christ is completely derived from one's personal predisposition.
Try reading Hurtado first before criticising his 'binatarian' theory. -
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Have you ever wondered. . . How the Question and Answer format got started?
by Lady Lee inthe question and answer from the paragraph format for watchtower study meetings has become a staple method for indoctrinating new recruits and maintaining control of the jws thought processes.. over the years i think they have played around a bit with the sequence of questions, readings and answers but the contenet has basically remained the same - ask the question, read the paragraph and give the answer.. so .
have you ever wondered who thought this might be a good method to conduct spiritual discussions?.
i never gave it much thought but i assumed rutherford came up with the tight control over discussions.. nope.
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yaddayadda
That article trying to establish a connection between meetings and clinical hypnosis is the biggest load of pathetic hogwash I've read in ages. The writer doesn't even describe accurately how meetings are conducted. Honestly, One may as well argue that the process of reading any printed matter from left to right with the eyes is advanced hypnosis.
JW's are guilty of a lot of things, but this article is really getting desperate.
The practice of asking questions and answering in church settings can be traced back to traditional liturgical protestant practice. -
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As you get older, What have you learned?
by avidbiblereader inwhat has life taught you?
any subject or any issue that you want to share to help someone else!!.
you cant change people no matter how hard you try.. money is important as we need it but happiness means more than money.
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yaddayadda
That time is precious so make the most of what is left.
Always treating people with kindness and courtesy, even when they are in the wrong, is more important than being right or respected.
Not to be easily discouraged and quickly give up on things, because the difference between remaining an amateur and becoming an expert is simply TIME.
Money is not as important as what people imagine it is; however, love and relationships are much more important than what most people imagine they are.
Rage against the dying of the light. Love desperately. -
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Russell the Laodicean Messenger--7 Messengers to the Church
by cabasilas ini remember seeing a picture of the 7 messengers to the church (st paul to russell) from the keratol edition of the finished mystery.
anyone know what page that was on?
or can someone post it here?
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yaddayadda
"St Paul to Russell". Wow! Never heard that one before. Can you please tell us more about this old teaching re the 7 Messengars?
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Is the Watchtower happy being stagnant?
by RULES & REGULATIONS instagnant.
adj.not moving or flowing; motionless.
foul or stale from standing: stagnant ponds.showing little or no sign of activity or advancement; not developing or progressing; inactive: a stagnant economy the sunday talks are copy and paste .the watchtower study is the same.ask the preprinted questions and answer.the ministry school is reading the same parts of the bible.the service program has the same dull presentations.the book study has some books being read 3 - 4 times.. is the watchtower society happy with being stagnant and just going thru the motions?
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yaddayadda
I don't think they're happy with it at all. I bet most of the old boys on the GB are scratching their hands, being rather mystified by drying up meeting attendance and zero and negative growth in the Western world. Where's all the 'doves flocking to their dove cotes' and why isn't Jehovah 'speed[ing] it up in its own due time'. It probably explains the weirdness of recent comments to the effect that the Matt 24:14 might be finished already.
I'm sure they'd love to be growing much more quickly. But I think Zico pretty much nailed it when he said they are afraid to change. They've painted themselves into a corner on so many issues that's it's almost impossible to see how they could get out of their stagnancy.
So they're pinning all their hopes on Armageddon coming soon to bail them out of the corner. They are like Alice in Wonderland going down the ever shrinking corridor, and praying there is a door at the end big enough to squeeze through. Unfortunately its more a case that they are up shit creek without a paddle or a life-jacket and the waterfall is looming up large. -
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Your Feelings On Getting Reinstated For Family Considerations
by minimus ini just read the mary/gumby where are they thread.
i want to say right from the start that i like gumball very much.
i've talked by phone to him in the past and we've had some discussions here over the years.
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yaddayadda
Maybe Gumby was stuck between a rock and a hard place but in the end has done a self-sacrificing thing by putting his love for his family ahead of his own disgust for what he sees is wrong in the organization.
Relationships with family and friends are more important than some crap spouted over the platform and printed in magazines.
He obviously has his own internal defence mechanisms for filtering out the crap. Some are better than others at minimising cognitive dissonance and Gumby has a strong enough mind to do that it seems.
Good on you Gumby and good luck! -
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WATCHTOWER beginnings: the neurotic/erotic leader: C.T.Russell
by Terry inevery movement in society, politics or religion begins with the personality and drive of one charismatic man (or woman.).
here is a recap of the birth and transformation of the person and personalities creating the religion now known as jehovah's witnesses.. 1.russell's mother was a scottish presbyterian who filled young charles' head with fear of hell.
being intelligent and sensitive, it electrified his very being with an intellectual struggle to grasp why a loving god would kill him!.
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yaddayadda
"Russell entered the "marriage" with a weird and perverse "prenuptial agreement" never to have physical relations with Maria."
Proof please! -
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Russell on prayer to Jesus & WTS charter? refers to worship of Jesus
by yaddayadda inhelp needed.
i believe that in one of the oldest watchtower issues someone asked ct russell whether praying to jesus was allowed and russell published his response to the effect that it was ok and russell said he sometimes prayed to jesus.
i'd just love it if someone could dig up the actual article for me as i want to show it to someone who doesn't believe me.
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yaddayadda
" "proskyneo" is at it's core an act of honor to an authority, or just a gesture of respect. "
That's a contentious statement. Can you back that up with scholarly support? There are various Greek words used by the NT writers to signify mere gestures of respect and acknowledge of superiority, but proskuneo in relation to Jesus connotes something more: reverence and worship of a divine being. In the book of Matthew in particular this comes through. "Gunther Bornkamm, Gerhard Barth, and Heinz Joachim Held concluded from their analysis of scenes where Jesus is the recipient of the gesture in Matthew, 'proskuneo' is used "only in the sense of genuine worship of God". (Hurtado, 2005,p.147)
I'd recommend you read Larry Hurtado's 2005 book "How on Earth did Jesus Become a God?", particularly the chapter "Homage to the Historical Jesus and Early Christian Devotion."
Keep in mind that Hurtado asserts that the earliest Christian devotion was 'binitarian', and even then only the Father is recognised as the one, true God (John 17: 3; 1 Cor 8:6; ). Worship given to Jesus stemmed, not from a belief that Jesus was 'God' per se, but out of acknowledgement for his role as the divine son of God now given all authority in heaven and earth and through whom we can have access to the Father, as the divine agent of the one true God, the Father. His book "At the Origins of Christian Worship" is also instructive in this regard.