Pahpa you said:
"To me it is significant that JWs always point to events that can't be proven to "prove" that the organization has "the truth." Examples: 1914 as the date of Christ's INVISIBLE presence, 1914 as the date of Satan's ouster from heaven. 1919 Date that God selects the Watchtower to represent Him. etc. This is one of the reasons that JWs have to cling to these dates even though no real evidence is forthcoming."
Not necessarily. The standard JW defense of this is that there is indeed hard, physical proof that they are right. For example, the claim that the so-called 'composite sign' of Christ's invisible presence has been evidenced by the sheer scale of horrors in the 20th century, such as the two most bloodthirsty wars in history (WW1 and WW2).
However, even if their interpretation of a so-called 'composite sign' is correct, it would only mean that Jesus is 'near at the doors' and that we are in the 'season' BEFORE Jesus returns, not that he returned in 1914 and has been invisibly 'present' (his presence known only to JW's) since.
A big trap that JW's fall into in this regard is that they see their own organisation and its tangible accomplishments as proof that they are the true religion. Examples: the JW's refused to go to war in WW2 (so they alone practice 'love among themselves'); JW's preach the 'good news of the kingdom' in over 200 nations (so they alone are fulfilling Matt 24:14); JW's alone are called by Jehovah's name and publish millions of bibles and publications praising that name (so they alone represent the true God, YHWH/Jehovah). But these claims are all debateable and really amount to nothing but circular reasoning.
yaddayadda
JoinedPosts by yaddayadda
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JWs use 1914 as proof that the devil was cast down, but...
by cultswatter indid you know the wts never announced that the devil was cast down until 1925!!
look at this now will ya.
quote from the book "babylon the great has fallen -god's kingdom rules".
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yaddayadda
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How much JW doctrine is in harmony with the Bible?
by OnTheWayOut insome have stated that the jw's go too far with their doctrine, but that much of the basic.
beliefs of the religion are correct.
i don't want to debate whether the bible is correct.. i just want opinions on how much of the jw doctrine agrees with the actual teachings of .
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yaddayadda
White Dove, I think you pretty much hit the nail on the head when you said:
"I believe that a relegion can have all the truth in the world but lacking love, it is worthless in God's eyes like the Pharisees were. They knew everything of the law of Moses but lacked the whole point behind it. Worthless. To me, it doesn't matter how closely the JW's follow the Bible because they miss the whole point behind it. Sounding pieces of brass and clashing symbols."
I agree 100%. True Christianity is not measured in degrees of doctrinal correctness. It means little in the final analysis. -
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yaddayadda
This makes me sick. This is the kind of news that tempts me to dissasociate myself.
What a reproach on Jehovah, whose name they have degraded to being similar to the ancient pagan Gods that babies were sacrificed too! (Jeremiah 7:31)
Shame on the Governing Body and their morbid, loveless, fanatical, pharasaical policies and interpretations, their ruthless brainwashing, and their slimey lawyers. Defending their precious legal 'rights' is more important to the Watchtower Society than saving babies and families.
To the Governing Body: "Go, then, and learn what this means, 'I want mercy, and not sacrifice.'" (Matt 7:13) -
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JWs use 1914 as proof that the devil was cast down, but...
by cultswatter indid you know the wts never announced that the devil was cast down until 1925!!
look at this now will ya.
quote from the book "babylon the great has fallen -god's kingdom rules".
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yaddayadda
Interesting. What did Russell believe about when the devil was cast down?
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1935 and the Insight of the Anointed
by AlphaOmega inremember this from the may 1st qfr ???.
however, genuine anointed christians do not demand special attention.
they do not believe that their being of the anointed gives them special "insights," beyond what even some experienced members of the great crowd may have.
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yaddayadda
Great research!
Watchtower man speak with forked tongue! -
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How much JW doctrine is in harmony with the Bible?
by OnTheWayOut insome have stated that the jw's go too far with their doctrine, but that much of the basic.
beliefs of the religion are correct.
i don't want to debate whether the bible is correct.. i just want opinions on how much of the jw doctrine agrees with the actual teachings of .
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yaddayadda
Onthewayout, although I have not be a JW for quite some time, I believe that the JW's have got the five things you listed scripturally spot on. Any fool can see that the trinity and immortal soul doctrines in particular are blatant deviations from scripture. They are more to do with pagan and platonic religious concepts than anything else. Of course there is the odd scripture that appears to support these false dogmas but the great majority of scriptural testimony clearly testifies to their falsehood (contrary to what Leolaia asserts). The correct test for scriptural truth is where the greatest weight of evidence lies; unfortunately some have the mistaken idea that a few ambiguous scriptures here and there must somehow 'unprove' something that is otherwise clear.
The churches of Christendom are clearly not teaching the truth on these basic things. Sadly, however, the JW's, despite seeing Christendom's false dogmas for the lies they are, have fouled up their own waters through having so many clearly false, unscriptural creeds (1914, 'other sheep', JW's are 'the truth', etc) and fanatical, harmful policies (shunning, blood policy, two-witness rule, no birthdays, etc). Thus JW's are hardly the one 'true' religion on earth, despite teaching many true things.
The 5th doctrine you listed is believed by all Christian religions and is hardly unique to JW's, so not quite sure why you listed that one. Many Christian religions also teach a time when earth will be restored somehow. The teaching that God torments the wicked in a burning hell forever is just such an insult to one's intelligence that it's hardly worth going into. Surely, presumably as an ex-JW, you are familiar with the clearly scriptural arguments against such a heinous teaching.
Unfortunately most of the answers you have been provided on this thread have come from persons who have renounced all faith in the bible as God's inspired word. You said that you did not want to discuss the reliability of the bible, but that is exactly what the thread immediately degenerated into. These posters have resorted to an argument that since the bible is a plagiarised mess then we cannot trust anything it says and everything in it is open to interpretation. So your question is redundant. You wont get very far by putting a lot of stock on the views of atheists and other persons on this forum who can only respond to questions on bible doctrine from the point of reference that that the bible is nothing more than a human work, an ensemble of fictitious writings.
Assuming that you still believe in God and have satisfied yourself that the bible is overall reliable and trustworthy as God's word, then your best bet is to do some research into websites that try to scripturally refute the JW's core doctrines on the trinity, hell, etc. Some of them present quite good arguments, but in my opinion they fail because they rely on a small handful of dubious scriptures to assert the correctness of broader Christendom's dogmas (trinity, etc). They fail to take into account and treat the great majority of scriptural testimony on these subjects, from Genesis to Revelation.
As for the restoration of Gods original purpose, contrary to what one poster said, it is absolutely obvious that the first few chapters of Genesis give us that purpose loud and clear. Death came upon mankind in the garden of Eden but through Christ and his Kingdom death as the last enemy will be no more. Eternal life on earth lost and eternal life on earth regained is practically the entire theme of the bible. Jesus Christ and the Kingdom of God are vehicles/mechanisms for the accomplishment of this orginal purpose, ie, the human family enjoying eternal life on earth in peace. The JW's have all this right. The restoration of all things/reconciliation with God, both in heaven AND on earth, is what it's all about. If you want me to provide you with scriptures to outline that I'm happy to do so (although of course its all just open to interpretation isn't it). -
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What IS the "Worldwide Order"?
by Doug Mason inthe more i uncover, the more i realize how little i really know.. after putting my org chart together, i have a question: who or what is this worldwide order?.
if this is the formal name of the full-time members within the overall organization, what is the name of the overall organization?
could it be something like new world society?.
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yaddayadda
Wow, I was a JW for 30 years and never once heard of this special 'order' of full-time JW's. Thanks.
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Why can't I just get over it and move on?
by Crumpet inmonths have passed now since mr c and i officially separated.
so why can't i get over it?
why am i still jealous?
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yaddayadda
Forget about the last one, get yourself another. Being alone is not the answer.
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Daniel 4:1-37, "Seven times"
by Son of John indaniel 4:1-37, "seven times".
what was the tree like, before it was cut down?
the situation is described in daniel 4:11, 12:.
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yaddayadda
Welcome. Unfortunately your theory is just as speculative as the Watchtower Society's, and as mentioned, it fails to properly take into account the context of Daniel.
The 'tree' in Daniel 4 simply stands for world rulership given by God. It is not God's kingly rule on earth as exemplified by Jerusalem, as the Watchtower Society believes. At the time the tree pictured world rulership that God had given to Nebuchadnezzar, ie, the Babylonian world empire. It is a parallel vision to that of Daniel 2 of the immense image (the head of gold was Nebuchadnezzar, likewise the immense tree was Nebuchadnezzar's world empire at that time).
That 'tree' was chopped down when the 'holy watcher' - an angel - came down and wrote the writing on the wall in Beltashazzar's royal court on the very night the Medes and Persians sacked Babylon. So the tree did not fall in 607 BCE (nor at Jerusalem's destruction in 586 BCE). It was chopped down in 539 BCE.
Nebuchadnezzar is spoken of in scripture as Jehovah's 'servant' and had a rather special relationship with Jehovah that no other gentile ruler has had since. He acknowledged Jehovah's sovereignty after regaining his madness and he received his rulership directly by Jehovah's authority.
The tree (world rulership given by God) was chopped down and the stump branded until Jesus Christ, the one with the legal right, is crowned as earth's new king. At the time the seven times will have passed and the tree will grow and flourish again. It will be world rulership by Christ and the holy ones (Daniel 7).
The 'seven times' is simply a symbolic statement indicating the passing of a long period until the fullness of time is reached for the completion of God's plan in relation to world rulership. It is not 2520 years and cannot be predicted in advance as if it was some mystical, hidden bible code. (Jesus said explicitly that these things are reserved for the Father only and no one knows the day or the hour except the Father.) The 'seven times' began when the Babylonian world empire was 'cut down' in 539 BCE and will end at an unknown future time when Jesus is crowned as earth's new ruling king (not 1914). -
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Anyone find any decent pro-Witness sites?
by IsaacJS2 inas i've mentioned a few times before, i'm working on a round of articles for austin cline's site.
the final "big daddy" article is an evaluation: is the wts a controlling, harmful cult?
but i don't plan on doing an attack article.
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yaddayadda
Wikipaedia usually lists some pro and anti sites. I think Freeminds does too. Greg Stafford offers some fairly rational defences on some things. Depends on what you're trying to refute I guess.
Websites that expose Watchtower Society errors and rotten policies, including ones that present the JW's version of things, are a dime a dozen on the internet now. The problem with most of them is that they then try and convince JW's that the should belive the trinity, that they are all going to heaven, and other teachings that are totally anathema to JW's. Despite the prevalence of ex-JW's to declare all JW doctrines as erroneous, the fact is they are not, but anti-JW websites never acknowledge this. The real issue is that the JW's do have core teachings that are impossible to refute - in fact, they appear to be scripturally correct on a number of important things (only the Father is truly God, no immortal soul, no hellfire, restoration of God's original purpose for earth, etc). This is an enigma and is what keeps JW's in servitude to the Watchtower taskmasters. The Watchtower can get away with anything as long as they adhere to Russell's old teachings on these matters. The great majority of JW's will always rationalise in favour of staying with the org because they have got many major things doctrinally correct, no matter how many other things they have got wrong. Their thinking is "Ok, maybe we are not perfect but we've got the BIG things right, whereas Christendom has the BIG things all wrong. We are the CLOSEST TO THE TRUTH." This 'closest to the truth' concept is the real concept that they are captive to. If your new website can get around this concept then you may be able to reach some of them.
Good luck.