you are dying.. you are evaporating.. we're the only ones that care, and that's because you took so much from us all.. i used to think you were just misguided.. now i'm thinking that you are heartless and manipulative.. the fight against your lies and control is just beginning.. i say that not to minimize the tireless and valiant efforts of those who have spent years exposing your fraudulence.. i am indebted to these for easing my exit from your cult.. but a new generation is awakening.. we are not done with you.. i got my brother out who was an elder.. i got a ministerial servant out.. i got my son out.
he will not waste his youth on your lies.. i post on jwd in the hope of getting many more out.. i am working on a book about the lies surrounding 1914. .
we smell your fear, your terror.
Sorry, AO, the new additions to the GB were a year or so ago.
But on JW reform favorable forums the tired old guard of elders were frequently mentioning the new GB members in the context of the possiblity of more leniency and more common sense prevailing. I think this September KM and the coming private Watchtower that is not for the public will make them abandon that notion and leave them thinking, "Oh crap! Now what?"
the bible students in 1918 numbered very few, fewer than 6,000. within three years, the number tripled.. the "intriguing subject" they proclaimed from 1918 through 1922 was "millions now living will never die.
" upwards of 70,000 attended to hear this message proclaimed in germany alone.
the talk series had a longer title, "the world has endedmillions now living will never die.
SBF: By your logic about the failure of the end to come in John's lifetime, the change of the "generation" teaching "only affected" those born before 1914. I would argue the disappointment over that change affected all JWs regardless of when they were born, especially the ones born much later. So your argument that the end not coming within John's lifetime was only a disappointment to John himself is ridiculous.
Please, SBF, enlighten me. I missed the part in the Bible where it said they thought the end would come in John's lifetime. Verses, if you please. And to caution you, I didn't say John was disappointed. Neither did John. He also didn't say anyone was disappointed, he just said the individuals who spread the word among the brothers didn't repeat what Jesus actually said. I try not to assume what the Bible meant by what it didn't say.
All I can find is that they spread the word that John would not die. Adding "before the end came" to their statements is your own contrivance, unless you have a Scripture stating that.
Was the dramatic growth resulting from spreading this false message of God's doing or not?
Permit me to establish relevance. The Proclaimers book section referenced claims that this tripling of adherents was in fulfillment of God "speeding it up in its own time." Since you admitted the message was false, putting your admission together with the further claim made by the Proclaimers book means that God used a false message to fulfill "speeding it up in its own time."
Since I have established relevance, will you answer the question?
The passage in John is a particularly good example.
Not really, because the idea was not the idea you dreamt it was. It did pertain only to John and there was no terminus of "until" involved, whatsoever. The common belief is offered by John only as a passing curiosity. The belief was spread among the brothers, not heavily propagandized to the known world at that time as something in which to put faith and hope. There really is very little comparison between the two.
But I must say I admire your tireless efforts on behalf of a religion that you infer you view as no better or worse than any other.
i have been trying to sort this out scripturally, and would like to get input from christians on how these two concepts differ and/or overlap.
please be liberal with scriptures to support statements.
i think there may be others who are trying to figure this out for themselves, too.
You don't want inclusive views.
True. I freely admit that the BIG HUGE SIGN on the front door means, "Atheistic Propagandizers Not Welcome In This Thread." That would mean exclusive views only, and anyone who says otherwise is lying.
Thanks for admitting so readily that any views inclusive of more than Christian and/or Scriptural views are off-topic. I appreciate your candor.
Is there something wrong with having a thread or two on the forum that is not welcoming to atheistic propaganda?
You ignore the very idea that subjects such as Grace and Forgiveness are HISTORICAL and have never been ESTABLISHED as data; only opinion.
You don't know what I think or feel about ... well, anything. This is just more of your same old "HEEEEE-HAAAaaaawwww!!! HEEEEEEE-HAAAaaaaawwwww!!!!"
All you KNOW from this thread is that I wanted THIS topic to be free of any but Christian and Scriptural views. ANY motives you assign to that request are purely conjecture on your part, which I find fascinating from someone who prides themselves on recommending a very different approach. You are a braying donkey: stubborn, noisy and you refuse to comply with even the simplest reasonable request.
Being an unpleasant oaf does not win converts.
Look in the mirror, jackass.
These theories under Catholicism, Protestantism, Calvinism have informed YOUR STATE OF MIND.
Only to the degree that these "THEORIES" impacted the Bible's usage of the words "grace" and "forgiveness". I have never considered these theoretical sources. Again, you engage in speculative assumption about me. Again, you are grossly in error.
A "verb" without action is metaphorically identical to faith without works, by the way.
Ahhh! So, you found a dictionary, discovered I was right, and now appeal to UNREAL metaphor to support your ignorant statement that faith is a verb? How precious! And you accuse others of intellectual dishonesty? Tsk.
Having faith (having being the operative verb) results in work in much the same way setting an alarm clock (setting being the operative verb) results in alarm. "Alarm clock" is not a verb because of what it causes, not even metaphorically speaking. Faith is not a verb, not even in metaphor. You were blatantly WRONG, without qualification or surrender. I can't believe you are so desperate to affirm a falsehood on a point so easily proven. HEEEEE-HAAAaaawwww!!!!
you are dying.. you are evaporating.. we're the only ones that care, and that's because you took so much from us all.. i used to think you were just misguided.. now i'm thinking that you are heartless and manipulative.. the fight against your lies and control is just beginning.. i say that not to minimize the tireless and valiant efforts of those who have spent years exposing your fraudulence.. i am indebted to these for easing my exit from your cult.. but a new generation is awakening.. we are not done with you.. i got my brother out who was an elder.. i got a ministerial servant out.. i got my son out.
he will not waste his youth on your lies.. i post on jwd in the hope of getting many more out.. i am working on a book about the lies surrounding 1914. .
we smell your fear, your terror.
Comparing the WTS to Moby Dick is a bit misleading, in my opinion.
(1) Moby Dick was a fictional character that only ever did fictional damage while the WTS is a very real Corporate entity that does very real and lasting damage.
(2) Moby Dick had oceans of water to hide beneath while the WTS has nothing to hide beneath any longer, not even the courts.
(3) Of the crew, only Ahab knew the character and monstrousness of the white whale, while thousands of people (probably millions) know exactly what the WTS really is.
(4) The crew tried to harpoon the beast but it could escape underwater with minimal damage, while the beast we hunt in landbound and lumberingly tremendous in scale—we can't miss.
(5) The ship that chased the white whale was limited in its number and variety of ammunition while our supply and variety is virtually limitless.
(6) The crew could only strike the beast from one angle at a time while we have our target surrounded and badly wounded.
So, I hope the discouraging references to Moby Dick can subside, since they are not really equivalent to the situation in which we find ourselves.
Respectfully,
AuldSoul
you are dying.. you are evaporating.. we're the only ones that care, and that's because you took so much from us all.. i used to think you were just misguided.. now i'm thinking that you are heartless and manipulative.. the fight against your lies and control is just beginning.. i say that not to minimize the tireless and valiant efforts of those who have spent years exposing your fraudulence.. i am indebted to these for easing my exit from your cult.. but a new generation is awakening.. we are not done with you.. i got my brother out who was an elder.. i got a ministerial servant out.. i got my son out.
he will not waste his youth on your lies.. i post on jwd in the hope of getting many more out.. i am working on a book about the lies surrounding 1914. .
we smell your fear, your terror.
Well, I put my hat in some time ago. It is happening already. The dismantling, I mean.
All those who hoped for a more lenient Governing Body to arise from these four recent additions (who represent 1/3 of the vote in the GB, BTW) should be answered by the new stance on information as well as by the public vs. private issues of the Watchtower. Get ready for pressure, folks. JWs are about to feel the squeeze.
It couldn't have come at a better time, really, poor souls. Their organizationally knee-jerk reactions are our best friend. I agree, nvr, they are scared. They don't know what to think of this new reality in which they finally woke up.
We can slay the beast.
on another thread i was responding to sentient and realized that what i was writing is what i truly feel so many who come out don't look at from a practical standpoint.
the individuals in the organization are not typically the biggest problem, it is the organization itself.
they call it an "organization" to hide its true face; it is a corporation.
Maybe the time has come for this thread to be resurrected, for this idea to resurface.
the bible students in 1918 numbered very few, fewer than 6,000. within three years, the number tripled.. the "intriguing subject" they proclaimed from 1918 through 1922 was "millions now living will never die.
" upwards of 70,000 attended to hear this message proclaimed in germany alone.
the talk series had a longer title, "the world has endedmillions now living will never die.
Okay, SBF, given that the talk's title was false, would you say that circulars, handbills, and newspaper adverts inviting people to the talk were spreading a true hope or a false hope to the public?
What about the fewer than 6,000 people who were talking to others about the talk and sharing the book with them. Were these sharing a true hope or a false hope?
Were they doing so while acting as God's sole channel of communication on the earth, or not? Was the dramatic growth resulting from spreading this false message of God's doing or not? It isn't a logical trap, it is a logical inevitability. Since I can't figure any logical way around this path, I am stuck going straight through it.
For what it is worth, if any individual shared the false understanding that John would not die (which is what the Bible says the disciples were spreading) they were guilty of spreading a falsehood. (John 21:22-23) If you would like to consider them false prophets, I have no problem with that. But I do believe there is a difference of several degrees when someone spreads something untrue about an individual and it would only affect that specific individual, versus an organization telling its followers to spread a falsehood from which an entire belief system arises and to which falsehood thousands of people flock, having been deceived into believing on the basis of an untruth.
Respectfully,
AuldSoul
the bible students in 1918 numbered very few, fewer than 6,000. within three years, the number tripled.. the "intriguing subject" they proclaimed from 1918 through 1922 was "millions now living will never die.
" upwards of 70,000 attended to hear this message proclaimed in germany alone.
the talk series had a longer title, "the world has endedmillions now living will never die.
If all the talk title did was cause someone to waste ONE afternoon of their life that they never recovered, the title of the talk was still false. Yes, or no, SBF?
In other words, were the beginnings of real organizational growth spawned by truth or by untruths? You see, if their organizational message wasn't truth even then, why would anyone expect their organizational message to become true at some future point?
i have been trying to sort this out scripturally, and would like to get input from christians on how these two concepts differ and/or overlap.
please be liberal with scriptures to support statements.
i think there may be others who are trying to figure this out for themselves, too.
Thanks for sharing that, Paul. Opening yourself up like that on this forum can be dangerous, with people like ... well, with hopeless and crotchety skeptics around in such abundance.
Thank you very much.
You're more than welcome, Paul. I was hoping someone would be able to sift through the the crap slathered liberally onto this thread and see something that would help them. I think some people are just hopeless, and somehow convince themselves they'll be happier in life if they get other people to join them in hopelessness.
Respectfully,
AuldSoul
i have been trying to sort this out scripturally, and would like to get input from christians on how these two concepts differ and/or overlap.
please be liberal with scriptures to support statements.
i think there may be others who are trying to figure this out for themselves, too.
smellsgood: Do you really have to barge in and start bellowing like a drunk Irishman?
Hey ... I'm an Irishman ... that was an insult ... Irishmen don't get drunk no matter how much they drink.
In answer to your question, the history of Terry's interaction with this forum would argue strongly in favor of a bellowed, "YES!!!"
