Posts by Copernicus

61

Is this Completely Apostate

by redline in

jw
friends

i just happened on this place a few days ago, and thought i would stop in to see what it was all about.

it claims to be a jehovah's witness forum, which it is not.. dont want to come here and point fingers, as i am sure there are some good people in here, just seems the bad have followed the good.

i guess in reality thats always the case, but hey, what else would these people do if they couldn't wage their little war on the truth.

Copernicus

Redline – welcome to our little home.

I was an active JW for many years, but haven’t attended meetings for some time now. Several years ago I too was stumbling around the Internet, and found the old H2O board when it was in its hay-day.

What got me started? Why did I look upon the forbidden fruit? I began using the net to gain research material for public talks. And low and behold, I discovered that so many of the quotes used by the society were incomplete, taken out of context, or simply refashioned in a way that allowed them to gain credence by using “worldly” sources to support their message. I wondered. . . why all the subterfuge? Why would they do this? What was there to hide? After a little more digging, I saw that this seemed to extend to many of their works; the Creation book being one of the most unarguably blatant examples.

In any case. . .

New compared to most, baptized 4 years, but still strong in my resolution.

I seriously doubt that you’re ready for what you’re going to find here. You are probably still to new to be interested in challenging your belief system, or may in fact think that it is unchangeable. But nobody “drags” anybody into this site. You are only a mouse click away from exiting, and free to anonymously explore and draw your own conclusions.

I think you’ll find that many of the most disturbing posts come from your active brethren. Maybe you can do a little better, huh?

I’ll close with a thought I’d voiced previously in response to another poster some time ago:

“I too independently considered the explanation that Bobby is offering you [that we have become the equivalent of the Israelites in the days of Jesus]. On the surface, it seemed to make sense and placated me for a short while. But really, where it failed the litmus test for me was my inability to find a biblical example of where Jehovah had intentionally (or otherwise) mislead and lied to people, and then told them that their reaction after discovering this was a test of their faith, as we were taught to believe. If God does hate lies, why would he entrap his supposed followers in an organization rife with them, and hinge their salvation on a willingness to propagate same? I couldn’t live with that aspect of the argument, though as I said, I did try for a time.”

Food for thought. But don’t take my word for it. Keep your eyes open and find out for yourself. Just pretend you’re a Beroean (how bad can that be?) and the rest is easy.

Have fun. . .

Copernicus

9

Dont put it in print!!!!

by anglise in

jw
friends

this is clever.. everyone thinks the society are becoming more open as far as education is concerned.. we have had a few articles in recent years which even go as far as encouraging youngsters to get trained, got to college and acquire useful job skills for the future.

then these are the magazines that the public also read and then think that the jw's maybe arent so weird after all.. but then go to this years dc's and we get the following;.

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=6326&site=3.

Copernicus

It seems the only ones with any real education and /or training are those who came into the org as adults.
The org then seems to milk these ones for all they are worth.

This brought back to mind a conversation I had with a CO one day in service. We just happened to discuss my background and employment, and he said, “you know, the society is ALWAYS looking for engineers.” And I thought to myself, hmmmmm. . . I’ll bet they are, LOL.

He then went on to lay out the wonderful theocratic opportunity (read: privilege) before me – to blow off three weeks of my vacation time, and at my own expense, fly out to Brooklyn to offer my unremunerated help with an ongoing project there. No thoughts on his part about the possible negative effect on my family, the financial impact, etc. I just changed the subject and he let it go.

It’s always amazed me that for an organization that frowns on higher education, they are ready in a heartbeat to take advantage of anyone who already had it before coming in. But really, how smart do you have to be to peddle magazines, which is job description numero uno in the borg.

I read somewhere, maybe in one of Franz’s books, about how the society set up special semi-annual meetings in this country (USA) for all the lawyers and doctors who were actively associated, to discuss issues relevant to JW’s. Yep, no special distinctions are made in this bunch! Funny how you never find out about these sorts of things by reading the WT. I guess it might have a questionable impact on the r&f, causing them hold off going door to door while instead reaching out for something more then janitorial service and low end construction jobs – so that they too could attend meetings like these and hold a place of honor.

Yes, the society was always urging us to simplify, while they skimmed off the cream of the crop for free, and used them to guild their palaces (eg: Stanley Theater) in Brooklyn and Paterson.

It’s enough to piss an old boy off.

28

Sat. Dist. Conv.--Cracking the whip!

by LostMyReligion in

jw
friends

i have put in my final day at this year's test of posterior endurance---saturday at the district convention, 2001. i took quite a few notes today, because some had specifically asked about saturday's program.

i hope all will be suitably edified by them.

do not just listen to bits and pieces of the program, but to the whole thing.

Copernicus

LMR – thanks for sharing! I enjoyed your little comments that so succinctly summarized each course of the sumptuous spiritual meal that was served at this DC. LOL To bad it was all reheated leftovers.

How I hated those things (DC’s), and the constant demands that we attend. In my years of being present, I can only recall one time when a speaker (Sydlik) happened to thank us for being there, and acknowledged the hardship that many endured to hear the load of crap that was shoveled up that weekend. Of course I’m sure he was flown in 1st class and chauffeured about, etc, etc, as he didn’t mention anything about personal hardships, ha, ha.

The TMS format change was interesting:

Format changes to the Theocratic Ministry School-- Jan 2003

How unfortunate that they’re waiting until 2003 to enact it. As far as meetings went, the TMS and SM were the worst of the worst, in my opinion. They need to get a clue and just drop it and let people have a life. Why continue on when so few attend the thing? In my congregation, the poor school overseer was almost reduced to begging to get anyone to participate. It got to the point where there were only a handful of publishers that would agree to give talks. Which meant that the rest of us had to carry the load (errrr. . . excuse me, I meant to say the light and kindly yoke).

I was always getting ragged for giving BH’s and instruction talks that deviated in small ways from the material. Hey, anything to make it interesting! The stuff was usually so dry I felt as if I had sand in my mouth while presenting it!

Anyhow, thanks again . . . and next time take a pillow to sit on, and don’t forget the earplugs, LOL.

93

LATEST INSTALLMENT OF APOSTATE "DOOM"...

by You Know in

jw
friends

as the last days wind down to their dramatic conclusion, prophecies that were heretofore obscure, over time have now come more sharply into focus.

one such prophecy that bears review is the oft-quoted verse concerning the "increasing of lawlessness.

" typically the watchtower has pointed to increasing criminal lawlessness in the world as evidence of the fulfillment of that particular feature of the sign of christ's imminent arrival.

Copernicus

Wars seem to always serve as a pretext for the nations to persecute Jehovah's Witnesses.

Really? What a coincidence! And here all along I'd thought that 99.9999999% of the people effected by these wars were NOT JW’s. Guess I was wrong.

Can you say delusions of grandeur?

More self-aggrandizement beamed in from the center of the universe, where YK is soon to reside.

10

Loyal Elders! Here's Your Future!

by metatron in

jw
friends

i will now predict the personal futures of countless.

loyal elders who secretly read this board.. in five to ten years, you will say to yourself:.

"what was i thinking?".

Copernicus

Rex - welcome to the board.

Real Christianity and the body of Christ exist in many denominations and independent churches.

Although off topic, I'm looking forward to seeing you post proof in support of that statement.

Certainly Paul's words: ". . .that YOU should all speak in agreement, and that there should not be divisions among YOU, but that YOU may be fitly united in the same mind and in the same line of thought. . ."
indicate to me that there may be a flaw in your supposition. This scripture always gave me pause for thought.

Enjoy your time here.

Copernicus

10

Loyal Elders! Here's Your Future!

by metatron in

jw
friends

i will now predict the personal futures of countless.

loyal elders who secretly read this board.. in five to ten years, you will say to yourself:.

"what was i thinking?".

Copernicus

Nice post Metatron. I think it may hit very close to home for many. It did for me.

What you described was the same writing on the wall that I saw, and part of the reason I got out. Life is just to short to waste it by trying to shore up a losing proposition. And the WTS is losing, slowly but surely, until as you said:

“In five to ten years, the average Witness will be no different than any other member of any religion.”

I agree. So what was the point in shoveling sand against that tide?

One of the things I saw was that unlike some other denominations, the WTS will never change to accommodate the needs of its followers, or the demands of modern society. It is above all that, and barring a dramatic change in leadership (most unlikely), they will ride their current authority oriented mindset to its death.

Some of the problem is of course, that the WTS was never intended to be a long term, ongoing concern. It was always driven by the short-term forecast of Armageddon. Looking back now, I truly believe that the GB felt it could say and do anything, believing that Jehovah would bring the deaths of billions just to save them the embarrassment of ever having to face up to their many failed predictions, and the mis-guidance given their adherents.

In a few years from now the ranks of the elders will be populated, almost without exception, by men interested in nothing but power, and the opportunity to exploit their positions. It’s already becoming the norm, in my opinion. During my years in the org, I met many kind and well meaning men. They are in the minority now, and are being pushed out of office by the “new breed.”

You said: “Don't spend the precious currency of your lifespan fighting a hopeless cause. Spend that time instead wife your wife and family. Years, from now you won't regret it.”

Very good advice.

18

Very important notice hits JW boards

by expatbrit in

jw
friends

i now realize that the reason i left was because i just couldn't deal with all the important issues: http://www.greatcrowd.com/159ubb/forum22/html/000161.html.

expatbrit

Copernicus

Here’s another jewel from that board (I could only take it in small doses):

http://www.greatcrowd.com/159ubb/Forum22/HTML/000153.html

“Yes! My guess (based on the theme of the convention and perhaps a current need) is a new or revised Reasoning book. (some understandings have been changed, and quotations etc need updates). Am I totally wrong or not?”

He “guesses” that there may be a need for updates to the Reasoning book? ROTFL

You’ve got to be kidding me. Reading this stuff took me back to a JW mailing list I belonged to years ago. . . but that's another story.

93

LATEST INSTALLMENT OF APOSTATE "DOOM"...

by You Know in

jw
friends

as the last days wind down to their dramatic conclusion, prophecies that were heretofore obscure, over time have now come more sharply into focus.

one such prophecy that bears review is the oft-quoted verse concerning the "increasing of lawlessness.

" typically the watchtower has pointed to increasing criminal lawlessness in the world as evidence of the fulfillment of that particular feature of the sign of christ's imminent arrival.

Copernicus

Isn’t it amazing how YK can pontificate profusely over the most mundane of subjects, yet he can’t answer a simple yes or no question?

YK said: “No surprise here. As a matter of fact I called Bethel a few days ago and was discussing that very verse with some prominent brother there.”

Are we name dropping now? I am so impressed with the obvious degree of influence you exert in the hallowed halls of bethel. Is your phone number on their speed dial? Did you mention your posting here while you where at it, or did you pass by that opportunity?

Continuing: “There's no question that a massive purge is going to take place when Jehovah God rocks the heaven and the earth one last time.”

I heard this kind of crap circulating for years before I left the org. It’s a cyclic thing, every couple of decades or so. All it represents is the ongoing attempt by the “faithful” to rationalize the gradual (though probably accelerating) collapse of the WT world. The GB doesn’t have to wait on Jehovah to rock anything, their own inane antics and teachings are completely sufficient to drive away anyone who isn’t braindead and hopelessly enmeshed in their web – without the need for any divine intervention.

Yes, JW’s are rationalizers par excellence. They can explain anything in the [new] light of reinterpretation. In a few years from now, when they’ll be 10 or 15 left in a congregation, we can be sure that the self-aggrandizement will be flowing like Niagara falls; while they kill time waiting for Jehovah’s next purge.

13

OPERATION of & Sin Against the Holy Spirit!

by Amazing in

jw
friends

when jws ask one of the anointed just how they "know" that they are anointed, they are really asking what it is that god does via the holy spirit that tells them they are chosen.

a "bolt" of lightening?

a rush of the wind?

Copernicus

Tina:

I burst out laughing when I read your post. And yes, I’ve had the same thought myself, once or twice.

But I did very much enjoy the responses to this thread.

Orangeblossom said:

“I lived most of my life filled with guilt, not for having some secret sin, but because I was not living up to the standards of the WTS. I use to look around at others in the hall and wonder how they could do it but not me. Anyway, once I read "Crisis of Conscience", the guilt left. But, I have to be honest, a void entered my life as well.”

My experience exactly after reading C of C! And it was the “void” you mentioned that I was referring to in my original post. I even thought of describing it that way myself.

Quester said:

“It is hard to put into words. Yes some people describe God's presence as love, peace--yet it
is not the normal love, peace feelings. Words are really inadequate to describe it.”

Yes, it IS hard to put into words, but I see you knew exactly what I was talking about. Could shared experiences like this prove that more is going on that an over active imagination?

Proplog2 said:

“The really scary thing is that JW's are governed by men who believe the feeling they experience really is some special anointing. If there really is a God, would he allow the only evidence of his special choice to be something so abstract and similar to psychosis?”

Yes, it IS scary isn’t it? Especially since that “feeling” that guides them so often takes them in the WRONG direction – to the detriment of many.

But what I wanted to say to Tina was that many of us need something more in our lives then is available from conventional means. That’s what drives these religious quests. My favorite book in the bible has always been Ecclesiastes – as it’s one of the few that I find real human feelings in, feelings that we all can identify with and that transcends time and circumstance. Like Solomon, we’ve all wrestled with the question of a purpose in life. What conclusion are we to come to that is adequately satisfying? Maybe there isn’t one. But what was described by some of the posters here was the sense of something larger then ourselves, something outside of our immediate existence, that served, if only for a brief period, to quell that inner turmoil that questions the futility of it all.

I enjoyed everyone’s thoughts very much.

Copernicus

13

OPERATION of & Sin Against the Holy Spirit!

by Amazing in

jw
friends

when jws ask one of the anointed just how they "know" that they are anointed, they are really asking what it is that god does via the holy spirit that tells them they are chosen.

a "bolt" of lightening?

a rush of the wind?

Copernicus

It's late and I just got back home and read these posts.

It gave me something to think about. . . thanks very much for the sincerity. What a subject, hey? And thanks for identifying. It meant a lot.

More to come. . .tomorrow.

Feeling lighter,
Copernicus