Posts by Copernicus

22

When things started to "fall off"

by comment in

jw
friends

i was thinking about this in several areas today.. 1) district conventions and house-to-house work.

if you were a witness for a long time, you probably remember a time when going to the conventions seemed perfectly "normal" to you: it was absolutely "the thing" to sit in a sports arena all day listening to bible talks and counsel from men in suits.. but at some point, did you ever start to feel like you were participating in a cultural relic, so to speak?.

as in, "here it is, the 1990's, and the society is still using fundamentally the same old format they've been using all century long.

Copernicus

Comment:

You said about the field service. . .

And I also got it eventually in the door-to-door work: something that had passed its best-before date and now felt more like participating in a historical reenactment.

A few weeks ago I saw an old b&w documentary on cable TV called “Salesmen.” It was basically one guy with a camera following around a bunch of 1960’s era door to door bible salesman as they went through their paces. The pre-movie clip mentioned that they tracked these men as they “rode the roller coaster between hype and despair.”

Twenty minutes into the show and it was ALL there. What a sense of deja vu! ). The thrice yearly motivational sales conventions (DC’s & CA's), the early morning pre-sales pump up session (service meeting), the same car groups, the same territory cards, the same call back slips, EVEN THE PRESENTATIONS THEY USED were all the same as the WT’s approach to magazine peddling. I almost chucked dinner.

They copped their tried and true techniques from “worldly sources” in (at least) the early sixties and you’re right, they haven’t changed since. What a tired anachronism the whole thing has become.

In our organizational world, what does not (or can’t) change must die. The WTS will prove no exception to that rule.

10

Ways To Advertise "Wtchtwr Hides Child Mol...

by Frank in

jw
friends

can you beat these easy ideas?.

to advertise "watchtower society hides child molestors www.silentlambs.org" try the following:.

get a piece of cardboard or other paper, print on it the message in large red letters, place in back of your car-truck-van window.

Copernicus

That's hilarious. I bet some of these people will take your sarcasm seriously. You were joking, right? / You Know

Your answer here is "good news" for anyone who's ever taken one of your posts seriously,LOL.

18

dem dang Awakes!

by Copernicus in

jw
friends

i happened to be in my doctors office yesterday and was browsing the magazine rack looking for something to kill time, and what did i perchance find?

yes, you guessed it.

a pristine issue of awake!

Copernicus

I happened to be in my doctor’s office yesterday and was browsing the magazine rack looking for something to kill time, and what did I perchance find? Yes, you guessed it. . . a pristine issue of AWAKE! Not having read one of these rags in almost a year now, I thought I’d take a moment to see what I’ve been missing, ha, ha.

On the cover was a picture of some “wholesome” looking kids standing about together, with the caption:

THE PROBLEM WITH CHILDREN. WHAT CAN BE DONE ABOUT IT?

The simple solution offered in the Awake? Have them all killed at Armageddon (of course)! Hey ma, look . . . no kids, no problem!

What is behind the inane reasoning of these countless magazines with their perpetual, open-ended banner questions, all having the same answer?

I’ve been reading “The True Believer” by Eric Hoffer; an excellent book recommended by several on this site. He makes an enlightening point about the need for mass movements (eg: cults, political extremists, etc) to constantly DEPRECIATE THE PRESENT.

To wit: “Not only does a mass movement depict the present as mean and miserable – it deliberately makes it so. It fashions a pattern of individual existence that is dour, hard, repressive, and dull. It decries pleasure and comforts and extols the rigorous life. It views ordinary employment as trivial or even discreditable, and represents the pursuit of personal happiness as immoral. To enjoy oneself is to have truck with the enemy - the present. The prime objective of the ascetic ideal preached by most movements is to breed contempt for the present."

Is this a description of life as a Witness or what?

He goes on to explain how it is the frustrated that are most easily drawn to mass movements because of their dissatisfaction with the present, and the promise offered of an immediate, radical change in their circumstances. One in which they will find themselves as the favored (or at least surviving) subjects. This book is a must read for anyone interested in the “how they do it” aspect of the WT experience, and for seeing it in relationship to other similar movements. They all really have certain elements in common.

The back of this particular magazine (I only looked at the front and back, that was enough) had another winner. It said that the popularity of the Awake was confirmed by the fact that over 20 million issues where printed every month in blah, blah, languages. LOL

Yeah, there’s a sure and accurate indication of a magazine’s popularity - how many were printed. I wonder if the WTS had to cope with all the unsold returns that normal publishing companies do, if they would still feel the same about that statement.

When I was a publisher, I couldn’t give the things away if I put 20 dollar bills inside! And even if I placed something, 9 times out of 10 it went right into the trash. So what is being accomplished here?

Two things: a select call to the frustrated (join us, we share your mindset!), and for the r&f, a constant depreciation of the present.

Copernicus

95

I witnessed to the Christians last night--LOL!

by LDH in

jw
friends

thought you all would enjoy this.. i went to a b'day party for a friend who is a bible-thumper in the worst way!

(10x worse than most jw).. i'm sitting around like a zombie while everyone is talking about how "blessed" they are to "know christ" blah blah blah blah blah.. then my interest got peaked as one of the women started quoting scripture talking about how the reason her life is blessed is that her great great grandmother was a russian mennonite blah blah blah and the bible says that god will bless your offspring if you come to know him.

blah blah blah.. so i start asking a few well placed questions like "well what does that mean for the poor muslim sop whose great great grandmother was a muslim?

Copernicus

Rex:

While you have as much right to hold opinions and speak about them as does anyone on this board (even. . . gasp . . . Fred Hall), I really have to wonder why you’re here. It’s very unlikely that you’ll find a sympathetic ear, especially with the rather condescending, belittling approach you display when examining the feelings of others.

Most of us here are pretty burned out on religion – the whole concept. That’s our privilege, and you can take it or leave it. But statements such as this -

Why don't you wake up? They're trying to show you REAL Christianity and you whine about how happy that are.

seem to me to be uncalled for. LDH has awoken, to a realization of having suffered what may have been many years of abuse in the WT. You’ll have to excuse LDH, or anyone else here, if they’re not anxious to again accept another “yoke” to be shared with someone as apparently obnoxious yourself. Jesus hardly attempted to draw followers to himself with the tactics you’ve displayed. And you do him no credit whatsoever by persisting in this way.

In my “career” as a Witness, I had MANY conversations with fundamentalist Christians, the vast majority of whom displayed very little bible knowledge. Their beliefs, like those of the JW’s, where based mainly on credulity and emotionality. They would often say ridiculous things like:

....sometimes he takes people home.

You mentioned in another post your “belief” that the churches of Christendom represent the combined “body of Christ”. I quoted you:

1 Corinthians 1:10 “Now I exhort YOU, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ that YOU should all speak in agreement, and that there should not be divisions among YOU, but that YOU may be fitly united in the same mind and in the same line of thought.”

And suggested that Paul’s thought here always gave me pause for concern when I heard anyone make a statement such as you have. I also asked for your proof in support of such an assertion; which on its surface, is quite an absurd one to me.

I’m still waiting.

I would suggest, in a loving sort of way, that you might consider lightening up a bit. Many of us here are hurting – emotionally and spiritually. We don’t need huge doses of in your face fundy attitudes. Or, maybe you could find another board more simpatico with you antagonistic outreach ministry.

And by the way, I thought LDH’s account was hilarious.

Copernicus

21

"AND AS FOR YOU STUPID ONES..."

by You Know in

jw
friends

"as for you stupid ones, when will you have any insight?

" is a question jehovah asks of you.

the question is part of the 94th psalm, and is directed toward those who imagine that jehovah doesn't see or understand what is happening.

Copernicus

Deacon:

I agree with JT. He gave you some good advice.

Please forward your name and address and congregation.

It will never happen. And besides, as I’ve already said several times, it is YK's own obligation to go before his elders and let them determine the magnitude of the “sins” he has committed just by being here. Not to mention the things he says. He’ll never do it. He is above all that; passing judgement is HIS job after all, thank you very much.

One of the things a friend of mine was recently disfellowshipped for was for partaking in conversations on this board.

I know this must be painful, but try to let it go. YK obviously has “serious issues” and his need to be heard (something he’ll never legitimately enjoy in the org) overrides any sense he might have. Not to mention revealing a serious lack of self-control. No wonder he’s not an elder, huh?

Every time I read one of his scabrous posts, I think to myself - at least he isn’t out knocking on people’s doors with this crap. Try to see the bright side of it all.

28

Sat. Dist. Conv.--Cracking the whip!

by LostMyReligion in

jw
friends

i have put in my final day at this year's test of posterior endurance---saturday at the district convention, 2001. i took quite a few notes today, because some had specifically asked about saturday's program.

i hope all will be suitably edified by them.

do not just listen to bits and pieces of the program, but to the whole thing.

Copernicus

Siveld asked:

Are they yet running out of willing and/or capable public speakers?

In my opinion, they HAVE run out. There were maybe three or four speakers in my circuit (myself being included in that sparse count – no false humility here that didn’t put an audience to sleep faster then an IV of Nembutal!

But it wasn’t just the bad speakers. It was the BAD material. Eddie Murphy couldn’t get a laugh with the jokes the WTS wrote. The newer KM parts were just horrible, and I dreaded being assigned one.

The funny thing was, no matter how bad the talk, the friends would still be lined up to congratulate the speaker afterwards! Go figure.

61

Is this Completely Apostate

by redline in

jw
friends

i just happened on this place a few days ago, and thought i would stop in to see what it was all about.

it claims to be a jehovah's witness forum, which it is not.. dont want to come here and point fingers, as i am sure there are some good people in here, just seems the bad have followed the good.

i guess in reality thats always the case, but hey, what else would these people do if they couldn't wage their little war on the truth.

Copernicus

Redline:

You've responded to a couple of my posts specifically, so I'm writing once again. I understand that you’re being bombarded with information directed at you, and that it is impossible to reply to all of it. I did want to say that in your answers to my posts at least, you seem to be responding more to their content then their substance. I hope you know what I mean? It is not a criticism. Besides, it takes a while to get a feel for the emotions of others in this medium.

About sifting through doctrines, you said:

This doesn't make it right, we are all held up to the same set of standards in the end, its not our choice. So this forbidden fruit was in lieu of the idea that it will still be destructive in the end for those who buy into it.

This is true. But, again, I’ll repeat my assertion that this analogy does not hold (in my mind). The Society is not a beneficent, all knowing God. It is instead an organization made up of imperfect humans (as you noted) who are driven by human motives. The Apostle Paul did not ask people to surrender their right to evaluate all sides of an issue, did he? When Jesus disciples had a question, did he tell them - don’t dare ask me to explain myself, I’m the son God. Of course not, yet this is the Society’s basic stance (that it is beyond or above being questioned), beyond preselected and carefully culled “Questions from Readers”. Believe me I know – I’ve tried to ask them.

I will say it again, all is not right in Paradise.

For instance, you mentioned “the end” in regards to love cooling off. Are we in the time of the end? And please don’t revert to the old “saying where is that promised presence of his?” think-stop. My research has shown that the Society’s chronology is a mere work of fiction. The fact that they are slowly dropping these teachings proves to me that they know it too. They have no idea were we are in the stream of time. Nor does anyone else. The “signs” we were taught to observe are without tangible manifestations as well, unless one insists on seeing more than is actually apparent. So then if we are not in fact in this “time of the end” – none of those scriptures or prophecies which the WTS applies to itself have any relevance, do they?

Think about this and make an obvious application:

Psalm 74:9 Our signs we have not seen; there is no prophet anymore, And there is no one with us knowing how long.

Many people are credulous, easily intimidated, so its the position of others to help these people along.

I can’t possibly think of you as being easily intimidated, so I’m going to recommend one of the best web sites I’ve found to research information on the Tower. You can see things there for yourself:

http://www.geocities.com/osarsif/index2.htm

I’d also suggest that you read any of Ray Franz’s books. They expose the whole notion of a F&DS, as the sham it is. Though I know many witnesses who have continued association after reading these things.

For years before your time the Society promised us that we had “accurate knowledge.” In fact, they claimed our salvation was dependent upon having it – and only they were the source of it. How sad the many recent changes appear to me from that perspective.

Aspirat primo Fortuna labori – I wish you nothing but well in your efforts to find the truth, and that you find success in the spiritual journey that we must all undertake. You remind me of myself (long ago) and many fine young brothers that I’ve known over the years.

The Society taught me good moral values, in return I gave them years of my life and thousands of dollars. I think we’re more then even.

My e-mail is unlocked. Write anytime.

Copernicus

61

Is this Completely Apostate

by redline in

jw
friends

i just happened on this place a few days ago, and thought i would stop in to see what it was all about.

it claims to be a jehovah's witness forum, which it is not.. dont want to come here and point fingers, as i am sure there are some good people in here, just seems the bad have followed the good.

i guess in reality thats always the case, but hey, what else would these people do if they couldn't wage their little war on the truth.

Copernicus

Redline:

Facilis descensus averno. Forbidden fruit, this was the same temptations that lead adam and eve off to destruction. Your mentioning that originally you had sought it out innocently at first, (no comments on the fact I am here as well) but then rejected your prior beliefs because of what you had stumbled across. That the society had deceptively left out information or changed it to fit the context.

My mention of forbidden fruit was meant to be sarcastic – because of the society’s relentless directions to refrain from surfing. Originally in the garden, the fruit was proscribed for reasons best understood by Jehovah. In this case the society had things to hide. All was not right in paradise. If they had been up front about numerous items, instead of trying to conceal them, they wouldn’t ever have faced the credibility issues they face today. I believe the fault lies with them in this regard.

I believe that there are many sides to all arguments, that we could easily bring out versus that when used in one conversation would have a completely altered meaning.

And of course, you are right. That’s something we all have to determine for ourselves.

I skeptically looked into the Jehovah's Witness Organization when it was first proposed to me. Not giving in on what I had already felt was factual, but then found that with their answers, and my study, that this was indeed the correct religion. But if I pause and look around, there are hordes of people trying to disway anyone associates with it away, and this is to be expected of anything that may hold value.

Hordes? Isn’t that a bit of an overstatement? And in any event, maybe they have your best interests in mind. It is a possibility, yes?

So rather then saturate myself with other peoples opinions, I usually stick with my own, and the Organization.

That’s your choice. I understand completely.

This is not completely mistake free (on my opinion), but over time the answers usually come.

Or so they say.

More then likely I couldn't stand up to a Theological Conversation with most of you, due to my lack of knowledge and experience. I however am strong on what I have established, and feel that my foundation is strong, and based on truths. I am sure most of you felt the same way before turning, but the love of the greater number was prophesied to start to cool as the end drew near.

“. . . but the love of the greater number was prophesied to start to cool as the end drew near.” Do not confuse love cooling off with the experience many of us have had in all of this. I still have a love of truth. Jesus said: “everyone that is on the side of the truth listens to my voice.” As I said in my earlier post, I couldn’t reconcile the lies knowingly propagated by the society with this clear injunction. If you can, that’s OK by me.

Why would the Jehovah's Witness be completely exempt from it?

I think that the title of “God’s Channel” is a serious mantle to assume. While no one is exempt, they hold themselves to standards that suggest they might do better.

Again there are personalities with the congregations, some Elders are kind and humble, while other may be pretentious and unjust in their dealings. We are plagued with imperfections, and to continue to fault the whole because of the few is ignorant and unfair. Even in my few years I have seen that, but cannot deny that my own actions have been similar, so cannot point fingers when I made my own bad steps.

Very well said, and well thought out. I’ve had the same thoughts myself on many occasions.

I enjoyed this exchange Redline. I am not interested in trying to sway anyone per se. I am here to try and heal the wounds I experienced while serving as a Witness. And to better understand both sides of what is an infinitely more complex issue than I would have thought possible. Over time as a Witness, you’ll see that the idea of grouping things in black and white begins to fade. Things are rarely that simple.

I wish you all the best. And if it works for you – go for it!

11

Dubs: How Much are You Worth to the Society?

by Farkel in

jw
friends

you are worth a few hundred bucks a year to them.

nada.

zip.

Copernicus

JW.com discussion board consensus (if there is one) may be that an evil, greedy corporation policy is in place. My personal impression is that many in authority are true believers, much as we once were. Fiscal responsibility is connected to "furthering Kingdom interests" in their collective minds. If the GB mindset were purely fund generation, I think the "friends" would gladly give even more if asked to do so.

You had me laughing to hard to think with your comment about the possibility of a JW.com consensus. Not much chance of that, huh? ha, ha

I didn’t see a greedy corporate policy either. Numerical growth in numbers was the big ticket, monetary stuff always played a distant second fiddle – it was only rarely mentioned in any CO meeting I ever sat in on. And then, only in the context of the donation vs. literature outlay. Which by the way, is something the society looks at, even with the new “free give-away” policy in place.

They did feel that the money was Jehovah’s, and were accordingly frugal. But as with all things, the times they are a changin’. In my area, several scams have stared to come to light. Cash conversions of donations by overseers to avoid personal income taxes, phony “loan” paybacks on hall construction, kickbacks for assembly hall use, etc, etc.

But when all is said and done, I go back to Ray Franz’s comment – that as a GB member, he only heard the mention of total assets once! It just wasn’t talked about. The GB was to busy figuring out if masturbation should still be a burn in hell sin to venture into such mundane things as money. I believe the thought was, and still is – Jehovah will provide. And tax free to boot!

As a “true believer” I gave freely. Putting a c-note in the box kept me high for a week.

Thanks for the explanation TMS.

And Farkel, I wasn’t trying to hijack your thread. We only got a little off topic.

61

Is this Completely Apostate

by redline in

jw
friends

i just happened on this place a few days ago, and thought i would stop in to see what it was all about.

it claims to be a jehovah's witness forum, which it is not.. dont want to come here and point fingers, as i am sure there are some good people in here, just seems the bad have followed the good.

i guess in reality thats always the case, but hey, what else would these people do if they couldn't wage their little war on the truth.

Copernicus

Elwin:

If there really was a GB in Jerusalem, wouldn't Paul have been going around to all those churches he planted, saying "Look, there's this bunch of guys in Jerusalem, you have to obey them?" In fact, he was going around saying, "Look, God's one and only Son has died for your sins, and you need to receive Him, become a new creation in Him."

I think you answered your own question here. And very well too I might add, ha, ha. It's pretty obvious when you think about it. Not to mention the fact that he didn't wait to get approval from some centralized "writing committee" before firing off his episitles.

Wait a while, I'm sure they'll be more to come on this one.