Posts by Copernicus

By the way, will there be a public stock offering soon? I'd like to get in, this thing has got to be worth BIG bucks - especially with YK's financial savvy!

5

What WILL they do?!!!!!

by Copernicus in

jw
friends

my wife and i have been discussing the probability of the upcoming dateline program and the impact it will have on the org.

its obvious to us now that the retirement of the gb some time ago (all of their pr bs aside) was predicated by their awareness that this situation was developing, or something similar to it.

seems logical, yes?

My wife and I have been discussing the probability of the upcoming Dateline program and the impact it will have on the org. It’s obvious to us now that the “retirement” of the GB some time ago (all of their PR bs aside) was predicated by their awareness that this situation was developing, or something similar to it. Seems logical, yes? So the threat is real.

We were thinking that there would be quite a build up of advertising hype surrounding the airing of the program, to build anticipation (and ratings) for it. Our question was: how will the Borg react when the ka ka hits the fan? My wife noted that when Ray Franz was df’d (the last really big shake up that occurred) it was all pretty low key as far as the public was concerned. So the damage control was all internalized. This time, the eyes of the world will be on them, and their reaction to these revelations. They’ll be no place to hide, and a few WT articles condemning molestation aren’t going to placate the wolves (read: lawyers) that will be appearing at their doors.

So what is going to happen?

Our guess is that early on, before the program shows, they’ll be the usual admonitions not to watch it, or take it seriously, all the while maintaining the innocence and purity of the GB members implicated. That will segue gradually into the old familiar Satan is attacking us theme, with the GB now becoming martyrs as the media feeding frenzy starts.

Finally, after the dusts settles and guilt is unarguably established, is will be the sad old – Jehovah is cleansing his organization routine. With the secular authorities being portrayed as agents of God used to weed out and punish the wrongdoers in the org; with the analogy being made that the same thing happened when Jehovah let the nations around Israel invade to punish them for their transgressions.

Then when it’s all over, the inevitable call will go out to remain faithful under this “test.” The “Jehovah’s is shaking the tree” ploy.

My guess is that 30% or so (in the 1st world countries) will leave the scene at this point. Then the class action lawsuits will start. I can see the Fed’s and the IRS taking an interest in this somewhere along the line. After that, who knows?

I assume most of you are thinking about this, so what do you think will happen? Ideas?

3

ministrial servant on platform

by BERNARD in

jw
friends

i served as a ministrial servant in the borg.

i received a #1 talk.

assignment from the jw proclamers of god's kingdom.

Copernicus

Hi Bernard:

I can see the looks on the brother faces as I gave the talk I was not convincing myself, and I was not going to say anything my own words concerning the information. I read the information straight from the borg watchtower mouthpiece. I knew the audience knew I did not believe what I was reading from the watchtower myself.

Welcome to a large and growing club. Many of us can relate exactly the same experience as you’ve expressed here. I still vividly remember my last public talk, and the sickening feeling I had (my conscience was killing me) while giving it that I was offering up just so much pre-packaged baloney to cover up WT lies. As I observed the faces in the audience, it dawned on me that they realized it too, and they weren’t buying in to a bit of it. That was it for me, I never got up on the platform again. I am an apologist for no one, and refuse to be used as a front man for any group.

I remember back in the 1994 convention when they gave the talk on the Generation change there was an uncomfortable feeling throughout yankee stadium I'll never forget it was eerie.

I wasn’t at Yankee stadium, but I seem to remember this talk from my own convention at the time, and recall the same eerie feeling that came over the audience. They knew the gig was up. They just didn’t want to accept it. In my opinion, that whole scenario began the slow death of the tower’s doctrine. It’s never been the same since.

As far as the Proclaimer’s book goes. . . it has to rank as one of the biggest loads of crap ever committed to paper. That they forced all the congregations to sit through a year of readings from it proves to me that they knew it was the only way they’d ever get anyone to take a look at it. The net is full of documentation that shows this book to be full of historical revisions and double talk. I used to gag whenever I was assigned a part from it. It was so dull that it felt like I had a mouth full of sand whenever forced to read publicly from it.

Glad to see your eyes are open, and that you had the courage to call it for what it is.

28

Atheist debate techniques

by Rex B13 in

jw
friends

1. intentionally twist any scripture to have less or more than it's intended meaning.. 2) ignore dispensational exgesis and time tested methods of interpretation in favor of jw style single scripture exgesis.. 3) pretend that you are above everyone else in intelligence and knowledge.. 4) pretend that your every statement is factual and there is no room for disagreement.. 5) intimidate your opponent by slander and insult.. 6) use various 'logical' terms to make yourself sound well...logical!.

7) use 'straw man' arguments and generalization to gain an edge from the beginning of the debate.. 8) pretend that science is clearly on your side and that no 'reputable scientist' would disagree with your claims.. 9) have your various allies and followers 'chime in' by attacking your opponent while you work on your response.. 10) above all, pretend that god doesn't exist and that there is no evidence beyond the physical.

make it sound reasonable to believe that all life came from nothing and totally by accident.. rex

Copernicus

. . . it's all just thoughts in the brain and no one has all the answers or any of the answers that we can't see and feel.

It seems you’ve grossly underestimated Rex’s own opinion of himself here. ROTFL

82

JW Organization On Autopilot

by AlanF in

jw
friends

these days it's pretty clear that the jw organization is running on autopilot.

charles taze.

russell, joe booze rutherford, nathan knorr and freddie franz all had a certain amount of vision.

Copernicus

Well Alan, here’s your chance, ha, ha. It’s amazing to me how you anticipated the existence of folks like Mis-mash. I wouldn’t have thought it possible. Let him/her have it. . .

The power of icons (even drunks such as the judge) to inspire others to ignorantly rise to their defense is simply astonishing.

28

Atheist debate techniques

by Rex B13 in

jw
friends

1. intentionally twist any scripture to have less or more than it's intended meaning.. 2) ignore dispensational exgesis and time tested methods of interpretation in favor of jw style single scripture exgesis.. 3) pretend that you are above everyone else in intelligence and knowledge.. 4) pretend that your every statement is factual and there is no room for disagreement.. 5) intimidate your opponent by slander and insult.. 6) use various 'logical' terms to make yourself sound well...logical!.

7) use 'straw man' arguments and generalization to gain an edge from the beginning of the debate.. 8) pretend that science is clearly on your side and that no 'reputable scientist' would disagree with your claims.. 9) have your various allies and followers 'chime in' by attacking your opponent while you work on your response.. 10) above all, pretend that god doesn't exist and that there is no evidence beyond the physical.

make it sound reasonable to believe that all life came from nothing and totally by accident.. rex

Copernicus

. . . it's just how I felt to the roots of my being.

Marilyn – I got a real chuckle out your post. I’ve often noticed myself how a brain can be a long winding roadblock compared to feelings. To much thinking, not enough intuition.

Rex’s reasoning shows the desperate attempts of an intelligent, rational man who is forcing himself to justify and materialize the irrational. He’ll get over it. . . eventually. When he loses the need. Maybe he has a wife who can help him

82

JW Organization On Autopilot

by AlanF in

jw
friends

these days it's pretty clear that the jw organization is running on autopilot.

charles taze.

russell, joe booze rutherford, nathan knorr and freddie franz all had a certain amount of vision.

Copernicus

I think dubs should know the caliber of people who formed their history and shaped it to the extent that it stands today. Da Judge being an alcoholic may be old hat to you, but it might be brand new news to recent lurkers.

Farkle – point taken. Years ago I was told stories by one old timer about how da judge would down a water glass full of whiskey (to get lubricated) before his radio broadcasts. At the time we thought it was funny. It’s not so funny now.

On a more objective note, I think we would all agree that religions like the Mormons are screwy because of their history, and in particular the history of their screwy leaders like the Mormons' Joseph Smith. Similarly, the screwy and immoral Rutherford put his stamp solidly on the organization that he created from the Bible Students -- Jehovah's witnesses.

This touched home for me Alan, as I live in Mormon country. Very strange bunch who make the dub’s look sane by comparison. Again – point taken. I guess I was feeling a little down about the whole mess last night. I know we all bought in at one time, and to see it exposed like this is so. . . words fail me.

82

JW Organization On Autopilot

by AlanF in

jw
friends

these days it's pretty clear that the jw organization is running on autopilot.

charles taze.

russell, joe booze rutherford, nathan knorr and freddie franz all had a certain amount of vision.

Copernicus

You Know:

If it means anything to you coming from me, I have to give credit where it’s due. When you drop the histrionics and write like this, you make the only biblically viable case for explaining the condition of the WTS today.

As I’ve said before, several of the old timers that I knew had come to the same conclusions as yourself, and before I stopped attending meetings this was the only argument (in the scriptures you mention) I could personally conceive of to account for what I saw going on around me. “Watchtowerites” – we had coined the same term. These were the ones that would burble any nonsense that was found on the printed page of a WT as if fallen from the lips of God himself. They’ve put their trust solely in men, because they don’t have the intellect (or spirituality?) to consider any independent course of thought, no matter how obviously flawed the current, head in the sand teachings of the org are. The concept of salvation in the collective “ark,” (leaky as it is) as opposed to individually standing before their master is just to ingrained to overcome.

Where I couldn’t make it work was the numbers. If 90% of the dubs go down the drain, and only the remaining ones were to be saved, it left me with the impression that Jehovah’s plan of recovering mankind had failed miserably, and the ransom was wasted. I know there are many ways of justifying this, but I got tired of playing that game.

In any case, financial calamity or not, I expect to see major schisms in the Society in the near future. As Alan aptly noted, they are completely ossified intellectually, and cannot adapt to changing circumstances; therefore circumstances will overtake them. I honestly believe that they thought all along that Jehovah would intervene before this point in time, and bring Armageddon, just to save them the embarrassment of their failed illusions. It’s their own fault for killing the few “men of words” still left in their ranks. But I digress . . . what I wanted to say was that at least one of these schisms will likely develop around the ideas you’re presenting here. Ideas such as yours are gaining some ground amongst the disgusted (but still loyal).

Time will tell. What does it all mean anyhow?

And Alan, while I usually enjoy your posts, and I appreciate the effort put into them – in this case, who cares if the old Judge was a confirmed drunk or not? Or if he had a mistress? Hasn’t this been played out? Is it relevant? I did recognize though your connecting the current mentality to the years of abuse suffered under his inebriated hand. Yes, as I think back on his many books that I read (and enjoyed at the time) I see now the haze of alcohol that gave rise to his flights of fancy. The whole thing is just so damn pathetic.

28

Atheist debate techniques

by Rex B13 in

jw
friends

1. intentionally twist any scripture to have less or more than it's intended meaning.. 2) ignore dispensational exgesis and time tested methods of interpretation in favor of jw style single scripture exgesis.. 3) pretend that you are above everyone else in intelligence and knowledge.. 4) pretend that your every statement is factual and there is no room for disagreement.. 5) intimidate your opponent by slander and insult.. 6) use various 'logical' terms to make yourself sound well...logical!.

7) use 'straw man' arguments and generalization to gain an edge from the beginning of the debate.. 8) pretend that science is clearly on your side and that no 'reputable scientist' would disagree with your claims.. 9) have your various allies and followers 'chime in' by attacking your opponent while you work on your response.. 10) above all, pretend that god doesn't exist and that there is no evidence beyond the physical.

make it sound reasonable to believe that all life came from nothing and totally by accident.. rex

Copernicus

Copernincompoop

My Rex, what a breathtaking display of wit!

About your post:

I wrote it, on the fly, after seeing Janboy Hoaglump's usual anti-God diatribe. . . My post was part serious and part tongue-in-cheek parody of Jan's latest diatribe

Delalus noted:

If your post was meant to be a parody, meant to be "tongue-in-cheek," it should have been at least somewhat funny. Instead, it seemed bitter and petty. You're not a very good humorist, nor a good satirist.

Hmmmm. . . so much for your latest attempt to ingratiate yourself with someone here, huh? While I agree with his assessment, I’d distill it down further by just simply calling you a liar.

Don't let the slander of the riff-raff give you any false assumptions.

Riff-raff? Is that what happens to anyone who expresses a negative opinion of your character based on their past dealings with you? They are relegated to your personal slagheap of slanderers and riff-raff?

I may not always feel comfortable with Alan’s head-on approach, or some of the things he says, but after reading his numerous essays on Osarif’s board I’d hardly qualify him as riff-raff. He’s too demonstrably intelligent. Do you have a similar body of work that I might investigate?

When I post something that someone else has written it will have their name on it.

You’ll have to excuse me here. The way you reel off bible quotes, while arrogating an unarguable, definitive understanding of them, led me to believe you’d do the same with any written material that suited your agenda.

Alan asked:

But let's try once more: How do you justify the Bible's teaching that the earth is flat and that the sun and stars orbit it?

Yes, from my namesake, you might imagine I’d be interested in your answer to this one.

Additionally, I’ll again posit a particular problem that I’ve always had with NT theology (which you ignored previously):

The failure of the bulk of bible prophecy to find fulfillment in the first century (ie: the end did not come) is the failure of Christianity in toto. Everything else is just apologetics. Jesus said the good news would be preached, and then the end would come. Paul said it had been preached, but the end didn’t come. Hence, it is not coming. The fact that Paul, with his supposed supernatural knowledge did not realize the oxymoronic nature of his statement claiming to have filled the inhabited earth with the good news (when he hadn’t), is cause for some concern. Or so I think.

Waiting. . .