Posts by Analysis

39

How Much is Personal Responsibility vs WTS' Fault?

by Prisca in

jw
friends

the current discussion of an ex-gb member has prompted me to ponder this question:.

just how much of our personal circumstances can/do we take responsibility for, and how much do we blame the wts?

you may have grown up as a jw, coerced into leaving early to pioneer, not go to university, have no kids, even stay single for the pursuit of singleness in the kingdom work to pioneer or go to bethel.

Analysis

Are the tobacco companies really responsible for deaths associated with smoking?

Is McDonalds responsible for people being fat?

Are the gun manufactures responsible when someone dies of gunshot wounds?

All three are choices, just like following the WTBTS.

Now some I agree have valid complaints that can be proved in courts. I wish those people success if that is what they wish to do.

As to Education and Material aspects of following a religion, I really don’t think anyone that blames the WTBTS for their lot in life really has anything to complain about. Why?

As to financial success:

The biggest factors in success are:

The genes you received from your birth parents

The Country or Area you were raised

Moral and work ethic of the people who raised you

We have no control over those factors; it is the luck of the draw!

As already pointed out by some on this thread, some of us have overcome many hardships and still can consider themselves happy and successful.

I know scores of people who had the opportunity to get a college education, who still find themselves without the financial security many of you attribute to a good and proper education. I also know millionaires who received only a GED or a High School Education.

Anyone in the developed world (such as the US) with a little luck and a great deal of hard work can have financial security. It is a sad statement that this can not be said for some places on this planet.

13

How many want out?

by ignored_one in

jw
friends

how many jws are there currently in the wt who want out but are held back by things they feel they can't control?

i hear posters say that if they're still jws then they must believe it.

what about the people whose whole family are jws and don't have any outside friends to turn to or for whatever reason are relying on their jw family for financial help and know that if they expressed doubts they would be cut off no questions asked.

Analysis

If you are married to a true believer and 90% of your friends and family are in; it is not that easy to mail in your DA letter.

16

How "Intelligent" Witnesses Think - and Endure

by metatron in

jw
friends

how can anyone with more than a handful of neurons maintain confidence in the watchtower organization?.

as dumbing down of the organization deepens, together with stubborn rejection of compassion and good sense, the .

pressure on capable, half-way sane witnesses is intensifying.

Analysis

"All of this is dead end thinking - that won't sustain another generation of Witnesses."

You are correct, but somehow the Catholic Church has been able to survive over 2000 years.

Many current JWs may become nominal JWs, just like most Catholics are only Nominal at Best. Most don’t worry about the Divorce or Birth Control requirements of the church. They love the Pope, but only go to church when they feel like it. The Memorial Attendance numbers vs. those who count time already show that most are at best nominal JWs.

The real problem will come when they have trouble attracting Elders and Pioneers. Just as the Catholics have trouble getting Priests and Nuns. At least the Catholics pay their employees. They have already lost most of the more intelligent elders. I think a great deal of the better Elders have stepped down and if they still attend are really just Nominal JWs. That is what I did. What gets me is that they somehow are still getting young people to pioneer. I just don’t understand why.

22

A Question for Those Who Converted to Atheism

by Piph in

i've been thinking and wondering a lot lately about the existance of god.

i haven't had much chance to talk to atheists before, and i was just wondering what was it that convinced you that there wasn't a god?

i'm not asking whether there's proof of god or not...i'm just curious about personal feelings and experiences, if you don't mind sharing.

Analysis

I believe some form of intelligence is responsible for life on earth. Maybe an ET.

But if God exists I believe he is just looking at the Box Scores. And that assumes anyone is keeping score.

40

Class Distinction Within The JW Community?

by Latin assassin from Manhattan in

jw
friends

has anyone noticed that jws who appear to be higher up on the 'socio-economic' ladder get special treatment at the kh?

no matter how many khs i've visited, i've noticed that jws who are not well off socially/financially/physically are treated with less respect/dignity than those with a business of their own, or just a higher quality of life.

i've been to many 'gatherings' where jws filter themselves out according to race or socio-economic standing.

Analysis

wednesday, you may be right, I was in the group and didn’t know it.

Someone a few months ago indicated that maybe, when I was an Elder, that the other Elders kept things from me and didn’t tell me everything that was going on in the Congregation. This could have very well been the case, because they knew I would go ballistic.

After 5 years of arguments with Circuit Overseers and the other Elders I just resigned.

40

Class Distinction Within The JW Community?

by Latin assassin from Manhattan in

jw
friends

has anyone noticed that jws who appear to be higher up on the 'socio-economic' ladder get special treatment at the kh?

no matter how many khs i've visited, i've noticed that jws who are not well off socially/financially/physically are treated with less respect/dignity than those with a business of their own, or just a higher quality of life.

i've been to many 'gatherings' where jws filter themselves out according to race or socio-economic standing.

Analysis

latin assassin from Manhattan

I was an Elder for 5 plus years and a MS for 25 years. The key word is was.

And yes all congregations are different. But in my area the elders are not janitors and their wives don’t act like because their husband is an Elder that it somehow benefits them.

I have known some really Fair Intelligent Elders with very nice wives. Except for a handful they are now Ex-Elders.

What amazes me is that they are not all Ex-Elders.

latin, I would say that you tend to be a little extreme and the world is only Black and White for you. I have news for you it is not!!!!

17

How long did it take for you to realize it wasn't the truth?

by freedom96 in

jw
friends

so many of us, so many reasons we left or were kicked out.

from that point, how long did it take for you to not feel guilty about things and realize that the wts is not the "truth" as they always claim and that they have no say in whatever happens to us later.. for me, it was a slow fade.

not so much because i was determind to leave it; it was basically laziness in that regard.

Analysis

The first 10 years I just went to the meetings because of my mother. Hey I was only a kid.

The next 10 it was because of friendships. We had a great many youths in our area and we became life long friends

The next 10, I guess you would say that I was attending, but not really there. They viewed me as being too materialistic. I purchased my first home in 1975!

Then I decided reach out and became an elder. Five years of Elders Meeting and anyone with any sense of decency will start to question many aspects of the "Truth". I resigned as an elder and read the Bible for a second and third time. The rest is a completely different topic.

40

Class Distinction Within The JW Community?

by Latin assassin from Manhattan in

jw
friends

has anyone noticed that jws who appear to be higher up on the 'socio-economic' ladder get special treatment at the kh?

no matter how many khs i've visited, i've noticed that jws who are not well off socially/financially/physically are treated with less respect/dignity than those with a business of their own, or just a higher quality of life.

i've been to many 'gatherings' where jws filter themselves out according to race or socio-economic standing.

Analysis

I must be in a congregation / area outside the norm. I think every congregation is really quite different. I have never met a First Lady of the Congregation. Elder wives are for the most part are very humble in my area.

Our PO, is a Pioneer and his wife supports him. I really don’t think she in anyway thinks or acts like the First Lady. Our sister Congregation, the PO is rather well off and his wife is a really down to earth person.

Because of the area no one in the Congregation is living off of Food Stamps. Yes Social Groups exist, but it has more to do with friendships. I think people actually separate themselves by their own actions or lack there of.

29

Who really writes the talks

by anglise in

hallo everyone.

the earlier thread about the min school reminded me of the number of times that i researched and at least partly put together items and pub talks for 'he must be obeyed'.. this was necessary because he worked full time in a demanding job which left very little leeway for cobbling the many assignments together.

at first being a good dub wife i felt guilty at doing this but in talking to others whose husbands also worked full time and were not part time cleaners or window cleaners i found that several other elders wives had always done this.. not only the talks but also sorting out the school assigments, the schedules, field service arrangements, sorting the auditing, coach and accomodation for the dc and ca, checking the accounts etc.. lots of these sisters also helped their children put together their items.. rather makes a mockery of the male privilege of "taking the lead".. most elders and ms are unable to cope with all the pressures and work if their wives dont do most for them.

Analysis

In some areas I can see where the wives would be asked to take on the responsibilities of brothers. Besides some of the Elders and MS wives are really more able to handle some tasks. When I was a MS and Elder I would ask my wife to proof read anything that was to go on the assignment board, but that was all.

Now granted there were times that I prepared service-meeting parts during the TMS. And at times on Q &A parts, I found the answers while the paragraph was being read. And being Book Study conductor is a breeze the 2 nd or 3rd time through the book. But, I am a salesman and have learned to be rather quick on my feet. And giving talks at the KH is not the stuff where Rocket Scientists are required.

I stepped down almost 5-years ago. I marvel at times when Elders from the platform make statements about how deep the material is for a particular meeting. What would they do if they had to handle the books Freddie wrote in the 1950s and early 60s?

Latin

Where I live the Elders are normally the best educated and have the best jobs. They drive the best cars and live in the better areas. So it is not the same everywhere. How else do the pay the simony? Now that is not the case in the Spainish Congregations in the area. But, even then they are rich compared to the others in their Congregation.

20

How do you manage your money?

by Billygoat in

jw
friends

as a child, i used to baby-sit kids in the neighborhood for money.

it wasnt much, but $2 or $3 an hour to a 14 year-old back in the early/mid 80s was pretty big stuff.

on new years eve when a lot of parents were clamoring for baby-sitters, the price would go up to $5 an hour, which was awesome.

Analysis

For basic financial advice Suze Orman on CNBC on weekends gives some good basic advice. She at one point in her life was deeply in debt. So she speaks from experience. She states that it should be people first, then money then things. Having money is of more value then the things most westerners spend their money to obtain.

The best advice ever came from Ben Franklin in his autobiography. Simply spend less then you make.

As for my story:

I came from what I thought was a very poor family. In fact we were just lower middle class, living in one of the most affluent areas in the western world. But, the fear of being poor was stronger then any faith I had in being a JW. It took over 20 years for me to progress from being a very good MS to making elder. They thought I was materialistic and that the rare occasion I time missed a meeting it was because of work. So I was not the proper example for the rest of the congregation.

As to simony, I guess they thought I had more to give. I gave money to every CO for that 20 years and it didn’t help me. I guess $20 in the 1970s growing to $100 in the late 1980’s just didn’t keep up with inflation. But when I was a child $20 would buy food for my family for a week. $20 will not buy a dinner for a family of 4 at a fast food restaurant in my area today. So maybe I am just a cheap. Which in the book "The Millionaire Next Door: The Surprising Secrets of America's Wealthy" -- Thomas J. Stanley, William D. Danko, basically shows that in the US most millionaires are just thrifty people who work very hard and save their money. They tend to drive older cars and they do not wear the latest in fashions.