Ok, still trying to understand here. Did not Jehovah himself not like the idea of a King of Israel, and wasn't the whole King concept done to simply placate them? And further, before there was a King, there was true worship. Why would a King be required to maintain true worship from 607 BCE - 1914 CE?
If you say the Gentile times referred to a reigning King, then ok. But that doesn't mean that true worship could not have happened, as it did. When I ask the organization question to a Witness, they always respond with 'God didn't have an organization during the gentile times', but then when you ask about true worship and the obvious organization of the early christian congregation, I get told it's all about kingship. ArrrggghhhH! Which is it people? Where would the biblical evidence for the Great Apostasy be found? The Jews obviously maintained true worship, if oppresive, until Jesus time. They did not go worship false God's again.
The next thing that bothers me about the whole 7x in Daniel being applied to Isreal, is that the PURPOSE of the 7x passing over was to humiliate the king, and bring him back in line with Jehovah's purpose. Why would Jehovah want to humiliate his own Kings? Where they not already serving his purpose? Further, Babylon did not cease to exist during the time the King was being humiliated...
So in summary questions:
1. Which is it: Jehovah's organization or a kingship that wouldn't exist from 607 BCE - 1914 CE?
2. If organization how does one explain that an organization did exist? If kingship, then wouldn't God's organization still exist anyway as evidenced by the time from 607 BCE - 33 CE?
3. What is the basis for the Great Apostasy?
FaithfulDoubter
JoinedPosts by FaithfulDoubter
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The 7 times leading up to 1914...
by FaithfulDoubter inok, i've talked to a few witnesses about this.
a period when true worship was not really available.
this seems inconsitant to me because: .
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FaithfulDoubter
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A kindler, gentler, WTB&TS?
by FaithfulDoubter inok, i've looked 3 times now through the new study book: what the bible really teaches and i can't find 1 depection of armageddon in it.
(if i'm wrong, someone please point it out!
) is this the beginning of the society trying to create a more loving image?
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FaithfulDoubter
Ok, I've looked 3 times now through the new study book: What the Bible REALLY teaches and I can't find 1 depection of Armageddon in it. (If I'm wrong, someone please point it out!) Is this the beginning of the Society trying to create a more loving image? Are we finally done with those scary images of Armageddon?
As a child, mostly due to the pictures in the literature, I had nightmeres all the time about dying at armageddon, because I feared I wasn't good enough to please God. Has the Society figured out that these pictures might be turning new ones off now? This is an interesting trend indeed.
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The 7 times leading up to 1914...
by FaithfulDoubter inok, i've talked to a few witnesses about this.
a period when true worship was not really available.
this seems inconsitant to me because: .
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FaithfulDoubter
Ok, I've talked to a few Witnesses about this. Here's what I don't get: according to the Witnesses the period of time from 607 BCE to 1914 CE was the 'gentile times'. A period when true worship was not really available. This seems inconsitant to me because:
1. The Jewish people DID return to pure worship, and DID rebuild the temple, and DID do God's Will. Of course, they also went overboard, so much so that Jesus had to counsel the religious leaders, and they regected him. Still for a time, true worship was definately there.
2. The time of Jesus ministry around 33 CE, and what happened to the time of the death of the last apostle, is unarguably a period of true worship as well. God's organization existed at that time.
According to the JW's, Jehovah has always dealt with an organization. This says that he even had an organization in those times of darkness between 607 BCE and 1914 CE. But, in the next breath, they'll tell you that the church teachings prior to 1914 (Catholic, Protestant, and Eastern Orthodox), are all steeped in apostasy. Well, during the gentile times, who was God's orgnaziation? I doubt you'll ever get a JW admit that the Catholic church was, despite it's definate power and so on and so forth.
So, could someone clear things up according to a JW perspective?
1. How do JW's reconcile true worship occuring between 607 BCE and 1914 CE with it being the Gentile Times?
2. Has Jehovah REALLY always dealt with organizations?
3. If affirmative to #2, what organization would one seeking true worship turn to between 200CE - 1914CE?
4. Why was that organization, if existant not used at 1914 to reestablish true worship, instead of a wholy new entity being formed?
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non sequiter (comic strip)
by darth frosty in.
this makes me think the writer must be an ex jw.. .
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FaithfulDoubter
The poster says: The end is still near And criticism of past failures in prophecy just lends aid and comfort to the enemy!
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Do you have a "Confidante"?
by JH in.
do you have a person, thats very close to you that you can reveal almost anything, your joys pains, just about anything to?.
or, do you keep all your worries inside and deal with every emotion you have by yourself?.
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FaithfulDoubter
I used to tell my mom everything, until she started blabbing it around the entire congregation. It seems to me that JWs can't keep secrets, they always have 1 person they must tell things to, and then that one person has another, and before you know it everyone knows. Like was said, might as well just announce it from the platform.
Now, I keep everything pretty much internalized, 'cept for a few things I've posted on some message boards whilst trying my best to stay anonymous. It's sad I can't share my doubts about religion to the people that matter most, because I know then they'll kick me to the curb. -
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Where does all the money go?
by FaithfulDoubter inok, so, i heard recently that the wtb&ts takes in over a billion dollars in the us alone.
that's a lot of cash.
it seems to me, from my limited vantage point, that the society is indeed doing the things it says it's doing with the money - support co's and do's, building kingdom halls, and so on.
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FaithfulDoubter
Ok, so, I heard recently that the WTB&TS takes in over a billion dollars in the US alone. That's a lot of cash. And, given how self-sufficient the help is and all, I'm curious if any financial gurus can point out where all the money is going. It seems to me, from my limited vantage point, that the Society is indeed doing the things it says it's doing with the money - support CO's and DO's, building Kingdom Halls, and so on. Is there any evidence of corruption at all?
And to that, I think the answer is no. But if there were, how would we ever know? I'm curious if there has ever been any embezzling or so on and so forth in the society. My current opinion is probably not, that the people involved honestly, and earnestly believe in what they're doing. If you have evidence to the contrary, I'd be really interested in hearing it.
(note: I'm not a JW apologist, far from it, just seeking some information here) -
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Struggling in a relationship with a JW
by Star1107 ini have a boyfriend of four years who is a jehovah's witness.
i had no idea what it was when i met him.
his parents recently got divorced and he is living with his mom who is jehovah.
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FaithfulDoubter
Witnesses are baptised when they are supposedly old enough to make a firm decision, and have an accurate if limited understanding of the faith. That said, given the repercussions of baptism as a JW, I feel that they allow people to be baptised far to young. I've heard of cases of people as young as 8 getting baptised, and I wouldn't be suprised to hear of even younger children taking the plunge.
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Yet another friend getting married...
by FaithfulDoubter inso, what makes this occassion special?
well, this is really one of my last friends from my age group to get married.
all my other friends have married off, or getting married off, which makes me the sole bachelor from the whole group.
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FaithfulDoubter
So, what makes this occassion special? Well, this is really one of my last friends from my age group to get married. All my other friends have married off, or getting married off, which makes me the sole bachelor from the whole group. Don't know whether to feel excited for him, or deeply troubled that I'm still single... *sighs*
Still given my current situation, I can't exactly go out dating a worldly girl, and I have NEGATIVE interest in Witness girls at the moment. I'm between a rock and a hard place here....
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Any PUBLICATION say that heavens doors were closed in 1935 ???
by run dont walk inthis seems to be jw belief, and only because rutherford said so in a talk, are there any publications that actually say that heavens doors were closed in 1935 ???
and any kind of references ???.
with the annoited class (pre 1935) getting smaller and smaller, i think in about 50 years the watchtower will have 144,000 replacements, how will they rectify this goof ???.
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FaithfulDoubter
Interesting, is there ANY biblical evidence that supports a 1931-1935 date? Or is this just more evidentlys and apparentlys going on... They sure are getting good about using those qualifiers aren't they? *sighs*
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Any PUBLICATION say that heavens doors were closed in 1935 ???
by run dont walk inthis seems to be jw belief, and only because rutherford said so in a talk, are there any publications that actually say that heavens doors were closed in 1935 ???
and any kind of references ???.
with the annoited class (pre 1935) getting smaller and smaller, i think in about 50 years the watchtower will have 144,000 replacements, how will they rectify this goof ???.
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FaithfulDoubter
Hrm, you are, of course, correct. But that doesn't eliminate the fact that I've heard it. Probably from an overzealous brother repeating things he heard that he shouldn't have, and adlibing it on a major part.
Although, I also heard from various people that when one of the annointed falls into apostasy or leaves the congregation they must be replaced, and that is the only way that the annointed are now selected. They are all replacements. (Again, I don't think I've ever seen that published either, so it might just be another local thing...) So, maybe the position is that the doors closed for the 144,000 in 1935, but there are still opening due to many of the annointed jumping ship?
And come to think of it, you couldn't be annointed as a baby now, either? So that means you'd have to be old enough to have been baptised in 1935 to be one of those annointed. Given an early age of baptism, say 10, that would make you 80 now.... Yikes!