jinjam said:
"and why not? are you going to make me believe that what you telling me here is the voice of reason.
You are entitled to your opinion, no problem you cannot make them do something that they don't want to, neither can I tell you what to think nor do!
Keep that in mind!"
I know that I can't force people to believe in anything, unless you treat people like the ancient hebrews did. Purge with fire and swords those groups of people that disobey. You can force, most people to believe, with military power. But I don't believe in that. I believe in reason. The voice of reason does not say that it is safe to allow peoples' belief to run rampant. You can believe that you are a prophet, you can believe that people need to drink poison and die for a better world, you can even believe that your children need to be killed or sacrificed for god, but when you start taking actions on those misguided beliefs then that idea that "anyone can believe anything" has allowed atrocities to happen. There has to be an enforcable guideline, one which upholds freedom of religion to an extent. To the degree it does not damage other humans.
Morocco
JoinedPosts by Morocco
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39
Petition To Make Refusal of Blood on Religious Grounds Illegal
by Kenneson inin montreal, canada in late dec. jean-claude lavoie refused a blood transfusion and died.
his decision has split his family apart--the father respecting his son's decision.
his brother, jonathan, a former jehovah's witness has since launched an internet campaign calling on the government to make it illegal for a person to refuse blood transfusions on religious grounds.
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Morocco
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39
Petition To Make Refusal of Blood on Religious Grounds Illegal
by Kenneson inin montreal, canada in late dec. jean-claude lavoie refused a blood transfusion and died.
his decision has split his family apart--the father respecting his son's decision.
his brother, jonathan, a former jehovah's witness has since launched an internet campaign calling on the government to make it illegal for a person to refuse blood transfusions on religious grounds.
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Morocco
I have to agree with Junction-Guy on this one. If people have the right to believe ANYTHING, then I have the religious right to teach my kids that they need to drink this kool-aid filled with poison and they can go to heaven on a comet -- once they die of course. That, most would agree, is taking it too far. But people, in their "religious right" to believe anything, can breed hatred, violence, and teach people to kill themslves and others. So if people deny SOME things, like polygamy, there is a reason for it. I think religions should be taxed, they should be held responsible financialy for damages, and I think they should be by law restricted from teaching anything that fosters behavior that would lead to phyiscal or emotional damage of any kind. I say sign the petition, stop this backwards religion from teaching suicidal behavior, and if you have to step on the toes of believers to do it, then step away. Why aren't we trying to help these people live? Because it's what they believe? Bullcrap. Why should anyone have the right to believe whatever they want, when what they believe causes people to loose their families and sometimes their lives. Think about all the religious warfare that is happeneing today and throughout time. Countless lives have been taken in the name of belief. People should not be allowed to belive whatever the heck they want. It must adhere to some sort of moral guideline. To say people have the right to believe ANYTHING is turning a blind eye to the piles of corpses that belief has created, it is plugging your ears to the screaming of the little children whos homes are being ripped apart by swords and bombs over religion. Belief isn't entirely bad -- but belief in anything you want is.
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7
WHAT do they say about that ?
by RAF ini've asked my sisters, my mother but none could give me an answer (guess why ?).
matthew 27:51-54. new world translation : 51and, look!
the curtain of the sanctuary was rent in two, from top to bottom, and the earth quaked, and the rock-masses were split.52and the memorial tombs were opened and many bodies of the holy ones that had fallen asleep were raised up,53(and persons, coming out from among the memorial tombs after his being raised up, entered into the holy city,) and they became visible to many people.54but the army officer and those with him watching over jesus, when they saw the earthquake and the things happening, grew very much afraid, saying: certainly this was gods son.. .
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Morocco
Doesn't this imply that the bible writer of matthew believed that the resurrection already happened? Was this to lend credit to the idea that the end was coming in their lifetime? Jesus did say that before they could finish the circuits of the cities that the end would come.
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MAT 24:14 HAS BEEN FULLFILLED MP3 FROM BETHEL HEAVY
by What-A-Coincidence inwarning: the wtbts is becoming more cultish as evidenced in this mp3.
listener take heed.
turn on all your cult warning alarms on.. .
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Morocco
Marvin Shilmer: rofl its so simple
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4
Should I Do Something To Help My Friends And Family?
by Morocco ini am no longer a jehovah's witness.
i stopped believing about a year and a half ago.
i have been quietly fading into the background and i don't think i will get disfellowshipped any time soon because of various different reasons.
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Morocco
lfcviking: Yeah that's a good point. The sheltered life doesn't help at all. But I think I am mainly speaking about the whole "satan is everywhere" thing. Witnesses aren't even safe from their own thoughts! If you entertain doubts in your mind then you are in real danger of "eternal cutting off". My god how much more paranoia can you possibly inflict? Everyone is controled by the devil, he has total power over everything. Wow. And I know "hate" is a strong word, but I'm sorry -- I hate that behavior. And if everyone in the world hated it as much as I do then we wouldn't even be having this discussion because there would be no one to maliciously control people to their demise. Urgh! I just feel like one day I'm going to have to speak up, and I really don't want to.
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4
Should I Do Something To Help My Friends And Family?
by Morocco ini am no longer a jehovah's witness.
i stopped believing about a year and a half ago.
i have been quietly fading into the background and i don't think i will get disfellowshipped any time soon because of various different reasons.
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Morocco
I am no longer a Jehovah's Witness. I stopped believing about a year and a half ago. I have been quietly fading into the background and I don't think I will get disfellowshipped any time soon because of various different reasons. I think, tho, that people have already been talking bad about me, but nothing official. My father is inactive, and my brother-in-law is just too lazy to go. My sister, my best friend, and my mother are fairly strong, or are fighting to become strong.
There are times when I appreciate “fading” because it allows me an avenue to rebuild my relationships which have been so fragmented while growing up. But sometimes when I keep up with current Witness events my blood boils. The Governing Body isn't just wrong, they're insidious liars; hypocritical about life and purposeful in their pain dealt to their followers; they whore out religion and God for the complete childish and selfish control and abuse of other people. These men should be punished to the fullest extent of the law.
I can feel the Armageddon noose tightening around my mom, friends, and sister. I can feel it creeping into my nephew's mind. The hype of the “End of False Religion” is a set up for another 1914 or 1975. Its the end of the world! Ahhh!
I keep silent because I don't want to irritate the already unstable relationships I am trying to mend. I keep silent. I've always kept silent. But is it worth it? Should I be speaking up and trying to save my family from their brainwashing? It would be different if Witness dogma was different. But it is dangerous! The Witness belief can kill people! They have no personality or mind of their own when it comes to the world outside. It breeds severe paranoia and hurtful, hateful things. When my mom dies, will I be able to forgive myself because I didn't at least try to get her out? When I'm old will I be able to live with knowing that I took no action and turned a blind eye to the abhorrent virus that is festering in my family's minds?
I'm so angry sometimes. I hate those people, those people like the Governing Body who abuse and control. There is no hellfire hot enough for those types. Selfishness! I hate them and their words and their stupid f#cking watchtower magazines. I hate their stupid beardless pathetic elders, I hate their rules, I hate their kingdom halls, I hate the podiums from which the dirty old pedophiles spew rancid poisonous thoughts that blaspheme and destroy. I hate their secrets, I hate their control. I hate they threaten to drive away my own family, I hate they cause friendships to be broken.
But, when it comes down to it, I can't quit second guessing myself. I think, and think, and time just passes by and the rift gets bigger and bigger. Is it better to not provoke it? Should I take the plunge and write the Disassociation letter and come out publicly? I just don't know. What should I do? -
1
Conversation with a friend. The true nature of Witnesses in their speech.
by Morocco inthis was a conversation between me and my x-girlfriend's sister that i dug up from the depths of my messenger program.
it happened a while ago during the big convention where they read the resolutions.
i highlighted by underlining certain words and phrases that i feel expose her true thoughts and the inherent feelings and thoughts of most witnesses.
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Morocco
This was a conversation between me and my x-girlfriend's sister that I dug up from the depths of my messenger program. It happened a while ago during the big convention where they read the “resolutions”. I highlighted by underlining certain words and phrases that I feel expose her true thoughts and the inherent feelings and thoughts of most witnesses. I also highlighted a few hard-hitting comments on my part. The conversation gets a little heated later on. I was trying to act nonchalant about the whole thing, as if I was still attending meetings and I still believed everything the Watchtower said. I was trying to act joking and not too serious – but she smelled a rat and I'm sure she gossiped about me after this was over. I just thought it would be fun to share. I'm Ryan by the way. I made a few comments in brackets at the end of some sentances, don't confuse those with part of the actual conversation! Enjoy!
[14:48] Ryan: Seventh:..We will resist with all of our strength the 'spirit of the world' that manifest itself in such things as materialism, unwholesome entertainment, overindulgence in food and alcoholic beverages, the plague of pornographic material and the curiosity or temptation that lures one into association with outsiders through internet chat-rooms
[14:48] Ryan: wasnt that part of the deliverance at hand resolution?
[14:49] Dalsey: yes, why?
[14:49] Ryan: like, are we not supposed to be talking to people online?
[14:51] Dalsey: no, I believe that is referring to the fact that there has been a big problem with witnesses associating with people outside of the truth more than neccessary, people who are not going to be spiritually upbuilding. you know?
[14:55] Dalsey: like last night there was a part on the meeting about how close to worldly people is too close. And how obviously we have to deal with them in our daily life and we should be kind and polite to them of course, but we dont want to be closely associating with them because they are not going to build us up spiritually, kind of like th whole one bad apple in with all the good ones? the good apples dont make the bad one good, it works in reverse. it was a lot about how cautious you have to be, that they dont drag you down or into something that isnt right.
[14:56] Dalsey: does that make sense?
[14:58] Ryan: yes, but i have a comment
[14:59] Ryan: i know that we have said before that the good apples dont make the bad ones good, ive actually heard those ideas before and its why we should stay away from worldly people
[14:59] Ryan: but the bible says that with every trial god will not allow you to be put in situations you can not bear
[14:59] Ryan: so... shouldn't it not matter that much? because i mean, the "spoiled" people are the ones who need the most help
[15:00] Ryan: i mean, being chummy with someone is one thing, but how can we be teaching truth to people if we are avoiding them ?
[15:04] Dalsey: yes I see your point, but at the same time, you have to be spiritually strong yourself and helping others to learn about Jehovah is what we are supposed to do you are right, but its not saying we avoid these people its saying we use caution,and we wouldnt just go and hang out with these people, because that would be in a sense seeking them out and that is something that we are told repeatedly not to do. and we are told that because it in many situations it doesnt wind up being beneficial for either party.
[15:06] Ryan: i see... so then, what does it mean "the curiosity or temptation that lures one into association"... curiosity of what exactly?
[15:10] Dalsey: the curiosity about the world and the things in the world. This is a bad thing, because it draws people away from Jehovah and out into the world.
[15:11] Ryan: thats true
[15:12] Ryan: i guess i just dont understand, because if you have faith in god nothing can break your faith
[15:12] Ryan: because god will not let you be tested beyond what you can bear
[15:12] Ryan: so dont we have an immunity with faith?
[15:12] Dalsey: thats true but Jehovah also doesnt tell you to go put yourself in a bad situation and he will protect you. (uuuhm -- sheeps among wolves?)
[15:13] Ryan: lol
[15:13] Ryan: yeah, i understand, but isnt that what going door to door is? actually going to peoples houses and making friends
[15:14] Ryan: i mean we go out for the express purpose of meeting as many people as possible
[15:14] Ryan: how different is the internet?
[15:15] Ryan: i guess what im saying is, remember when Jesus was condemned by the Pharasees because he ate with the tax collecters?
[15:15] Ryan: and the people who were viewed as really bad people?
[15:16] Ryan: jesus didnt care who he talked to on a daily basis because he had a message and whoever wanted to befriend him did so
[15:16] Ryan: if jesus did it whats the problem?
[15:20] Dalsey: because jesus was preaching to the people...not hanging out for fun
[15:20] Ryan: hm, it just didnt say that
[15:20] Ryan: i guess im confused by the vauge application
[15:20] Ryan: it just said "dont be curious of chatrooms"
[15:21] Dalsey: Jesus wasnt seeking to be their friends though, he was teaching them, he was spreading the truth about Jehovah
[15:22] Dalsey: Well, if you have questions about it, I think to have them answered in the best way possible, you should talk to an elder maybe. Because they obviously will have the correct view, and be able to explain or just talk to you about whatever.
[15:24] Ryan: yeah youre right, i was just wondering cause it sounded like it was saying "dont use the internet" maybe i just misunderstood it or maybe they didn't clarify what their point was
[15:26] Dalsey: think about this though, Bad associations spoil useful habits. the bible didnt say dont talk to people of the world because obviously we have to to some degree, but its saying associate, is referring to continual contact with people outside of the truth for recreation, and if your not discussing spiritual things with them, your just with them, outside of work or something, what else can you call it??
[15:28] Ryan: right
[15:30] Ryan: i just think its funny
[15:30] Ryan: i met krystal on the internet
[15:30] Ryan: two happy years so far!
[15:30] Ryan: lol
[15:33] Ryan: i guess a lot of people can't control themslves on the internet or something... but thats their fault
[15:33] Dalsey: that still doesnt mean its a good idea. Nikki met her husband online too, and shes been married a year and half, but she looked outside of the congregation and i know it killed me personally so think about how much more it hurt Jehovah.
[15:34] Ryan: yeah, but its not him thats stopping her from coming to the meetings
[15:34] Ryan: if he is a nice guy and treats her well, maybe she will decide to one day come back
[15:35] Dalsey: excuse me Ryan but you do not know about that situation. and even if he didnt outrightly tell her not to go, is he supporting he at all? No, he is not
[15:36] Dalsey: because he doesnt have a love for the truth, he doesnt understand the importance of it. and going to the meetings is hard enough when you have a family to support you, but when you have to go alone all the time while your spouse stays at home, its hard isnt it:?
[15:37] Ryan: well, i mean i dont know anything about whats going on, and im not trying to step on toes here... but no one made her look outside the org. either... please dont take offense to that but its the truth isnt it?
[15:38] Dalsey: no you are right, and i dont mean for it to sound that way. But, why did you? (asking why i looked outside the org.)
[15:38] Ryan: who said i did?
[15:38] Dalsey: im sorry not trying to step on toes either (BACKTRACKING)
[15:38] Ryan: no its ok im not getting mad
[15:38] Ryan: i was just curious
[15:39] Ryan: its pretty hard to piss me off you should know that :P
[15:40] Dalsey: heh, well I'm not trying to say Krystal is a bad person, please dont take
it that way, she seems very nice, but is she a witness Ryan? Does she help you spiritually?
[15:40] Dalsey: Maybe its not fair of me to say anything about any of it, I guess its not my business.
[15:40] Ryan: actually she does help me spiritually... but id still like to know who said she wasnt a JW
[15:40] Ryan: no, if your my friend it IS your business
[15:41] Dalsey: no one said she wasnt. (LIAR)
[15:41] Ryan: but you made the comment like you knew
[15:42] Ryan: im not going to go around busting heads, but i just wanted to know who
said she wasnt
[15:42] Dalsey: I apologize, I assumed and that wasnt nice, and if she does help you, then that is wonderful. But I just thought she had grown up around the truth but wasnt really a witness (TRYING TO ESCAPE)
[15:42] Ryan: you dont have anything to appologize for
[15:43] Dalsey: well, no to assume something like that wasnt right of me. And I feel bad for saying something like that when its untrue. (tricky)
[15:44] Ryan: i wont accept your appology because it IS true... she isn't a JW ... but why defend the person you heard it from? I won't get mad... its not like i dont know people talk
[15:45] Dalsey: Ryan I honestly didnt hear that specifically from anyone, it was just what I gathered. I believe Tyler and Cody told me she had grown up around the truth, but the rest was just my own thoughts. (still won't fully fess up, and I'm being nice!)
[15:45] Ryan: ah
[15:46] Dalsey: hey im sorry I just realized im late, good grief. I have to go for now, ttyl (suddenly she has to go)
[15:46] Ryan: ak
[15:46] Ryan: ok
[15:46] Ryan: holler at me another time
[15:46] Dalsey: mmk
[15:46] *** "Dalsey" signed off at Fri Aug 18 15:46:34 2006.
Session Close (Dalsey): Fri Aug 18 15:54:15 2006
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11
Special Talk on Saturday @ 3PM?
by Morocco ini was talking to a friend and he said the co (i think) was coming down this saturday for some special talk at 3 pm.
i don't ever recall special talks on a saturday, or as late as 3 pm -- what could it be?
unless i misunderstood that it was the co, maybe it was someone else.
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Morocco
that's it sir82, it was a bethel speaker. I just don't remember a speaker from Bethel ever coming in my 18 years as a dub. Shows how much I payed attention! What is the deal, what would they be talking about? Is the Bethel speaker there to say something unusually important or is it all the regular droning on about boring stuff?
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11
Special Talk on Saturday @ 3PM?
by Morocco ini was talking to a friend and he said the co (i think) was coming down this saturday for some special talk at 3 pm.
i don't ever recall special talks on a saturday, or as late as 3 pm -- what could it be?
unless i misunderstood that it was the co, maybe it was someone else.
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Morocco
rofl -- outlaw
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Morocco
he would go into super saiyan mode and swiss-cheese the whole building, then he would fly around the earth, reversing its rotation, sending us back in time so he could stop Russell from founding a religion