Posts by cyberguy

Posted by GregStafford on Sat - Jan 18 - 3:02pm:
Hello,
I frequently get emails from Jehovah's Witnesses who are concerned about certain teachings or policies in the organization, but who are left asking, "Even if I think there are significant problems in the organization, where else would I go if I left or if I am disfellowshiped for speaking out against false teachings and abusive policies?"
Since this point comes up more than any other in the emails I receive, I thought it might be helpful to post some thoughts on this question by copying an email I recently sent to a concerned brother. I will keep his name confidential, of course.
Dear *******:
Sorry for the delay in responding to your last email.
I am glad to hear that you have some positive leads on how to proceed with your situation.
Regarding the first century Christians, what we have is a situation where Christ's followers constantly battled for the truth and for sake of the good news. This battle often involved confronting persons inside the Christian Congregation who were speaking falsely. Indeed, Paul went so far as to write that if he, an inspired apostle, or an angel of light, spoke differently from what they had already been taught, then they should be rejected Galatians 1:8-9). So there was a freedom among first century Christians to reject those who taught error, and to hold true to one's conscience without fear of being shunned. That freedom does not exist in the congregations of Jehovah's Witnesses today.
As for the PAROUSIA, we do not know when this event will begin, or if it has begun already. Therefore, we cannot use it as a sure basis upon which to act. We must act according to what the Bible teaches and let it be our guide. Assuming that God has established an organization today because we may be in the period of the PAROUSIA ignores the fact that God's chosen organizations of the past have all fallen into periods of apostasy. Therefore, the question is not whether or not God has an organization today, but whether the organization we think is his has fallen into doctrinal error. If we truly believe the Watchtower Society represents Jehovah's will on earth, then we should be the most concerned of all people if we find that errors are being taught. Yet, the thinking of some Witnesses is that if it is God's organization we should ignore the errors because it is God's organization! That, to me, is incredible, and does not conform to the biblical pattern where we find God and Christ Jesus approving of individual members of their organizations (Jewish and Christian) who reacted to false teachings and unholy policies that harmed God's people and that did not represent his will. (Compare Jesus' words to the members of the congregation in Ephesus, in Revelation 2:1-2.)
Whether the "dragnet" is still pulling as it was during the Middle Ages, who can say? As Christians, we are called to imitate Christ and Christ held truth to be paramount: "For this reason I have been born and for this I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to the truth. Everyone that is on the side of the truth listens to my voice" (John 18:37). Paul taught Christians to 'obey truth' (Galatians 5:7), and to be "pillars in support of the truth" (1 Timothy 3:15). In Titus 1:14 "commandments of men" are directly contrasted with "truth." Those who turn from the latter to the former are called "deceivers of the mind" in verse 10, and we are told to be "reproving them" in verse 13. How can this be done in the Watchtower Society today? It cannot be done, except from the top down.
You either accept what the Society says or you are marked and eventually disfellowshiped. You are not able to bring a cause for complaint against the members of the Governing Body or those responsible for the material in the publications. They will either correct themselves or they will not. You have no recourse but to go along with what is written if you wish to remain a member in good standing with the organization. This was not the way of the first century Christians. Paul confronted Peter with a serious complaint and Peter accepted the counsel. He did not complain that Paul was out of place because he did not listen to the one (Peter) whom Christ appointed to 'feed his little sheep' (John 21:15-17). He did not complain about Paul causing division. How can division be wrong when the division is over truth and error? These two must be divided. Christians today do not view Paul's action as inappropriate, and yet he is an example for all Christians (2 Thessalonians 3:9). Paul was right and Peter was wrong, even though Peter was directly charged with 'feeding' Christ's followers.
The Bible speaks of weeds and wheat being intermingled until the harvest, which harvest appears to be the time of Armageddon, not the period since 1914, though I cannot say for sure. No one can. But if that is the case, then it should not surprise us to find Christians in all walks of life hidden from one another in many instances by "weeds," to be united when Christ comes in judgment. Then his people will be gathered from the four corners of the earth and comprise the "new heavens and the new earth." (Well, at least this is one way to view it.) This does not mean we cannot evangelize or tell others what the Bible teaches on matters such as Christ's Messiahship, the divine name, God's name and identity, and even do so with passion and conviction. But understanding the complexities of Christian devotion today and how fragmented God's people might be as a result of a wide range of religions and authorities can help you have a more balanced perspective which will allow those who choose to leave the Watchtower organization to carry on their work in smaller numbers.
You mention that if you left the organization that your zeal would likely decline. If your zeal would decline as a result of leaving the organization, could it be that your zeal is to some extent misguided? I ask this only because it is often a problem for Witnesses to remain active apart from the organization because the organization has conditioned us to think along these lines:

quote:
*** w73 7/1 p. 404 Praise Jehovah with His People ***
16 If we truly appreciate Jehovah's earthly organization, we will remain loyal to it, knowing that the organization is his. If we were to leave it, where else could we go? There is no other organization that is doing the divine will or that is educating people for life everlasting. When many abandoned Jesus Christ, he asked his apostles: "You do not want to go also, do you?" Peter replied: "Lord, whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life; and we have believed and come to know that you are the Holy One of God." (John 6:66-69)
*** w74 7/15 p. 438 Have You Really Come to Know God? ***
21 Perhaps something is said in one of the Watch Tower publications that you do not grasp or that adjusts our previous understanding of matters. How do you view this? Will you allow doubts to creep in? Will confidence be replaced with skepticism? Ask yourself: 'Where did I gain the knowledge of the Scriptures that I already have? Has not the spiritual food provided through the Watch Tower publications helped me to change my life and find contentment and satisfaction? Where else would I go?' This is the feeling toward Jehovah's arrangements that the disciples had toward Jesus: "Lord, whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life."-John 6:68.
*** w96 2/1 p. 24 Trust in Jehovah and His Word ***
9 Stick closely to Jehovah and his organization. Loyally imitate Peter, who resolutely stated: "Lord, whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life." (John 6:52, 60, 66-68)

Do you see the problem with this type of thinking? While Peter in John 6:68 said, "Whom shall we go away to," the organization has displaced Jesus with itself, asking, "Where else will you go?" So, really, if your zeal is the product of your faith and trust in Jesus Christ and Jehovah God, then it will not decline. But if it is at all the product of the organization, as the organization itself maintains it is, then your zeal likely will decline until you are able to derive it solely from the true source of Christian inspiration, Christ himself.
Don't get me wrong, this is still a very tough issue for all of us. Especially for those of us with families, and that is why no decision should be made in haste. But if we are guided by truth and by a desire to hold fast to what can be proven from the Bible, not by enforcing beliefs that are questionable as if they are unquestionable, we will surely not displease Jesus or Jehovah. My recommendation is simply to follow this course, and if you find that in so doing you can remain an active member of the Watchtower Society then that is what you should do. If not, then you should know that you do not need to go anywhere else. It is not a question of where you are, but to whom you are loyal, and 'where two or three are gathered in his name, there he will be, too' (Matthew 18:20).
Your brother,
Greg

Edited by - cyberguy on 26 January 2003 18:6:38

163

So, where DID the 1914 timeline go awry?

by Xander in

okay, i know that historical evidence is that jerusalem fell in 586/7 instead of 607 - as the wtbts would have.

however, that is not compelling enough to show a hypothetical jw.

they (generally) must not only be show that the opposition is correct, but that the wtbts is wrong.

Regarding the Society's timing of Dan. 2:1, I posted something some time ago that might be of some interest (see below). There are some other issues that are addressed there too. Xander's question "where DID the 1914 timeline go awry?" might be simply answered "at the beginning." What I mean is that the "Gentile Times" concept is predicated on the Society's interpretation of Luke 21:20-27 and Acts 3:21, 24. These two scriptures play a critical part in the beginning of an overly complex and convoluted chain of scriptures! Without them, the whole concept of the "Gentile Times" falls down like a house-of-cards!

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.aspx?id=9775&site=3

53

Staying Awake Or Keeping In A Frenzy?

by AlanF in

we ex-jws know very well how much the watchtower society put us under pressure to believe that "armageddon is just around the corner".

they've been doing it in one form or another ever since charles taze russell began publishing his nonsense.

in 1877 he advocated that true christians should believe that christ would "take them home" in 1878. when that didn't happen he moved the event up to 1881. after that he focused on 1914.. the society is still doing pretty much the same thing, building up expectations and then revising them, decade after decade.

cyberguy

Thanks Alan for "Keeping on the Watch!"

Sixth, the number of genuine anointed disciples of Christ is dwindling, though some will evidently still be on earth when the great tribulation begins. Most of the remnant are quite elderly...

This last "line of evidence" was evidently presented to fill the void left when the "generation-from-1914" doctrine was dropped. None of the other prophetic claims can stress the need for "urgency" as this one can. Because even if someone believes we're living in the "last days," without being able to determine the duration of this period, now through some "anointed-generation-not-dying-out-until-the-end" teaching, any "line of evidence" becomes almost meaningless!

Interestingly, they admitted that only the number of "genuine" anointed follows is going down! Why do you suppose they had to say it that way? Could it be that the actual, printed number in JW-Yearbooks was going up or staying relatively steady for many years? Also, don't they believe that the majority of partakers are "genuine?" Evidently not!

28

JW's -- Is Jesus your Mediator?

by UnDisfellowshipped in

the watchtower society teaches that jesus christ is the mediator only for the "anointed" jw's and that the "anointed" jw's are the "mediators" for all of the "other sheep".. the bible says jesus is the one mediator for all men:.

1st timothy 2:5: for there is one god, and one mediator between god and men, the man christ jesus

cyberguy

UnDisfellowshipped

It gets even more pathetic! The Society teaches that "anointed" worshipers are "declared righteous," resulting in being viewed as "sinless" before they're taken into the New Covenant, which Christ is mediator. However, one purpose of his mediator-position is to represent "sinful" mankind on the one side and the perfect God on the other. So why the need for a mediator? Really, the real question is why aren't all Christians taken into the New Covenant? The Society's explanation is a complete sham, a fabrication!

Edited by - cyberguy on 9 January 2003 13:18:19

31

If You Weren't A Witness, What Would You Be Today?

by minimus in

jw
friends

many of us are or were witnesses because we were born into the religion.

others became witnesses because they really thought it was the truth.

so many wish that they never had a jehovah's witness come to their door or their parents' door.

cyberguy

I would NEVER have become a JW! from what I know now and what little I knew when I was a little boy, there's no-way I would have become a Witness! I "studied" when I was very young, back in the early 60's! I recall going to the book-study in 1963 with the "Babylon" book. However, when I was baptized (1973), things were a bit different! You were allowed to question the "organization," you were actually encouraged to do so (this might seem a bit strange for current-day Witnesses!). However, you were encouraged to ask questions (I'm speaking of the late 1960's)! It's different today! If you ask questions, you're cllassified as an apostate! How sad, considering where we were 30+ years ago!

Edited by - cyberguy on 7 January 2003 22:36:49

7

DA'ing policy for blood transfusions?

by cyberguy in

has anyone gotten a scanned copy of the letter sent to co's, to da someone instead of df'ing them for a blood transfusion?

it seems to me that this policy change has been secretly kept from everyone outside of elders.

in fact, the co read it to elder bodies, but nothing in writing was actually given to local elders to file in their talmud-of-society-letters!

cyberguy

Thanks "Researcher" for replying

I do "get-the-point" about DAing vs. DFing, however, in contrast to voting or joining the military, there appears to be no "paper-trail" for DAing those taking a blood transfusion! It seems that they dont want the rank-and-file JW's to know (or elders to pull from their Talmud-of-letters from the Society) that they will automatically DA anyone who takes a blood transfusion! This is a very disturbing trend and demonstrates the Society's deceitful tactics as of late! For this reason I posted this question in this particular group. Im hoping that someone can get a copy of the letter sent to CO's or DO's that collaborate/validate this policy change. Thank you for your reply though!

Edited by - cyberguy on 7 January 2003 16:56:43

15

Our Anniversary Surprise

by Mulan in

jw
friends

yesterday, the kids surprised us with a sunset dinner cruise, as their gift to us for our anniversary.

it was very elegant, on the top deck of a large catamaran, dining vessel, off of waikiki and diamond head.

we had waiters (not a buffet) and great entertainment.

cyberguy

I'm glad you folks are having fun! You can understand why I've made your vacation spot my home! I love it here! Anyway, one of these days we'll have to get together!

PS -- have you folks gone outer-island?

Have a great time :-)

7

DA'ing policy for blood transfusions?

by cyberguy in

has anyone gotten a scanned copy of the letter sent to co's, to da someone instead of df'ing them for a blood transfusion?

it seems to me that this policy change has been secretly kept from everyone outside of elders.

in fact, the co read it to elder bodies, but nothing in writing was actually given to local elders to file in their talmud-of-society-letters!

cyberguy

Has anyone gotten a scanned copy of the letter sent to CO's, to DA someone instead of DF'ing them for a blood transfusion? It seems to me that this policy change has been secretly kept from everyone outside of elders. In fact, the CO read it to elder bodies, but nothing in writing was actually given to local elders to file in their Talmud-of-Society-letters! Does anyone know why?

Edited by - cyberguy on 1 January 2003 4:22:27

37

Which Watchtower teachings lack logic?

by sleepy in

jw
friends

which watchtower teachings lack logic?.

i know you're all tempted to say all of them, but some beliefs if the facts were true, would be logical.. which ones that are supposed to be a logical consequence of a true fact are in fact not logical whether the fact is true or not?.

for an example of logical belief based on untrue or unprovable fact , if god created adam and all humans came from him,(supposed fact) he could pass on defects in his genes to all humans and we could all be "imperfect".this we could call logical.. a watchtower belief that lacks logic is for example jw's who go through armageddon or die and are ressurected to earth are not perfect but still have another test to go through, yet those who die and that go to heaven are perfect straight away and require no further testing.. so which teachings are based on beliefs that are not true and which ones are just not logical?

cyberguy

The FDS "class" -- the collective whole "feeds" each individual, anointed member. Do you know any JW who can explain how this is actually suppose to work? Also, there's only 1 slave in the illustration in Matt., how then do they get 2 slave classes out of 1 slave?