Cygnus

Joined

• started 93 topics
• posted 1,861 times   see topics posted on
• send a message

Posts by Cygnus

• 
  62

  Canadians

  by Defender in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i see that a lot of posters and possibly lurkers are from canada.. can you please mention briefly what part of canada you're from.

  maybe some of us can get together.. i'll start; i am in vancouver.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Cygnus

  I live 10 minutes from the Peace Bridge. Always ready and willing to come across for some entertainment.
• 
  34

  For all x-JW's: quick question.....

  by Kathy in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  if you remember, i've been inquiring about how to discuss jw issues with my boyfriend's sister.

  it appears she is accepting the watchtower driven interpretations of the bible, but we are still not giving up.

  if you are willing, would you respond, in a nutshell, to the question, "what is the doctrine or belief that the jw's hold that was most instrumental in leading you to abandon this religion?

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Cygnus

  The 607 thing. But that doesn't work for just anybody.

  If she really wants to believe in the Bible, then you're probably not going to rescue her with much ease, because JWs have appealing answers to many objections. I myself make it a semi regular practice to go into anti-JW chat rooms run by Protestant fundies and tie them all up in knots by defending JW doctrines on issues like the Trinity, 144,000, spiritual resurrection, and so forth.

  If she's not too hardcore about taking the Bible so literally, and if you aren't, then you can take that angle and try to show how JW ideas of inherited imperfection and the 1000 year reign are just plain silly.

  Good fortune.
• 
  28

  Atheist debate techniques

  by Rex B13 in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  1. intentionally twist any scripture to have less or more than it's intended meaning.. 2) ignore dispensational exgesis and time tested methods of interpretation in favor of jw style single scripture exgesis.. 3) pretend that you are above everyone else in intelligence and knowledge.. 4) pretend that your every statement is factual and there is no room for disagreement.. 5) intimidate your opponent by slander and insult.. 6) use various 'logical' terms to make yourself sound well...logical!.

  7) use 'straw man' arguments and generalization to gain an edge from the beginning of the debate.. 8) pretend that science is clearly on your side and that no 'reputable scientist' would disagree with your claims.. 9) have your various allies and followers 'chime in' by attacking your opponent while you work on your response.. 10) above all, pretend that god doesn't exist and that there is no evidence beyond the physical.

  make it sound reasonable to believe that all life came from nothing and totally by accident.. rex

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Cygnus

  1. Intentionally twist any scripture to have less or more than it's intended meaning.

  Interpret the scripture based upon the actual text, not speculation or a priori application.

  2) Ignore dispensational exgesis and time tested methods of interpretation in favor of JW style single scripture exgesis.

  Demonstrate how such texts contradict other passages in the Bible.

  3) Pretend that you are above everyone else in intelligence and knowledge.

  Be sure you know what you're talking about.

  4) Pretend that your every statement is factual and there is no room for disagreement.

  Give evidence for assertions, and stick to the truth of the matter.

  5) Intimidate your opponent by slander and insult.

  Describe radical fundy characteristics with appropriate terminology.

  6) Use various 'logical' terms to make yourself sound well...logical!

  Understand logic and apply it sensibly.

  7) Use 'straw man' arguments and generalization to gain an edge from the beginning of the debate.

  Introduce topics so that even a layperson can understand both sides.

  8) Pretend that science is clearly on your side and that no 'reputable scientist' would disagree with your claims.

  Produce examples that support your assertions that fundies are completely out to lunch.

  9) Have your various allies and followers 'chime in' by attacking your opponent while you work on your response.

  Garner support from other reasonable skeptics.

  10) Above all, pretend that God doesn't exist and that there is no evidence beyond the physical. Make it sound reasonable to believe that all life came from nothing and totally by accident.

  Limit one's self to discussing what can be observed. Admit that origins are a mystery, but provide several good working theories which do not involve miracles or accidents.
• 
  81

  Nourishment for the Spirit

  by Maximus in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  my observation is that persons who 1) heal/adjust the most rapidly from their jw experience and 2) seem to have the most joy in life are those who read, read, read, in pursuit of what i call nourishment for the spirit.

  i've really enjoy the pithy aphorisms you use here, which suggests you've distilled some wisdom from somewhere.

  i'm going to ask your help in this thread.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Cygnus

  In Search of Christian Freedom by Raymond Franz; Atlanta: Commentary Press, 1991 – Written by an excommunicated member of the central authoritative governing body of a well-known religious group, this 700+ page volume discusses the freedoms initially enjoyed by first century Christians and how such freedoms gradually became trampled upon and the scriptures misapplied to give the few great power over the many. Discusses the consequences and rewards of divorcing one’s self from spiritual restraints imposed by men.

  Catechism of the Catholic Church by The Holy See; United States Catholic Conference, 1994 – For a person whose religious heritage was one disposed to ignorantly criticizing and denouncing traditional and historic Christian doctrine, this text was a real eye-opener. Several canned “arguments” given to me by my religious leaders against certain teachings such as the trinity and hellfire were proven to be fallacious in nature. I found myself correcting the elders during ministry school meetings, which is a big no-no! No, I didn’t convert to Catholicism, but I gained much admiration and appreciation for what Catholics really do believe (or at least are supposed to believe!).

  The Jewish New Testament translated by David H. Stern; Clarksville MD: JNT Publications, Inc. 1995 – A version of the New Testament different from all others. It retains and expresses the Jewishness of the original authors of the NT, and frees the NT from standard Gentile-Christian linguistics, culture, and theology. “Jesus, son of Joseph” becomes “Yeshua ben Yosef,” “John” becomes “Yochanan,” “Paul” becomes “Sha’ul,” and so forth. Even the “Holy Spirit” becomes “Ru-ach-Ha Ko-desh.” More than simply emphasizing the original Hebrew terms, however, this version attempts to focus on forgotten aspects of NT teachings in harmony with the Torah – did Messiah bring the Torah to an end, is the Torah legalistic in nature (the works vs. faith issue), the import of the Land of Israel in the New Covenant, etc.

  The Christian Agnostic by Leslie D. Weatherhead; Nashville: Abingdon Press, 1965 – A liberal viewpoint of Jesus’ life and ministry, intended for, well, allow me to let Weatherhead explain: “I am writing for the ‘Christian agnostic,’ by which I mean a person who… though he is sure of many Christian truths, feels that he cannot honestly and conscientiously ‘sign on the dotted line’ that he believes certain theological ideas about what some branches of the Church dogmatize.”

  Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism by Bishop John Shelby Spong; New York: HarperCollins, 1991 – Along the lines of Weatherhead’s book, Spong discusses many alleged teachings and miracles attributed to Jesus, how the Bible’s unscientific nature clashes with twentieth-century knowledge, who St. Paul was and the reasons for his conversion and anti-homosexual stance, and so forth, and an in-depth examination of the gospels under the light of healthy skepticism. The only problem I had with Spong’s work was that by the end I wondered why the heck he was still a Christian!

  Honest to God by John A. T. Robinson; Philadelphia: Westminster Press, 1963 – Often spoken of as the predecessor to men like Spong, Robinson takes a critical look at traditional concepts of God as the “invisible man in the sky out there somewhere” from the rather unique position and authority of Bishop of Woolwich in the Anglican Church. Robinson has in fact written many such books, discussing the his perception of the real New Testament hope (he doesn’t accept the teaching of the immortal soul as inherently biblical), the relationship of Christ to God, and our identification of “being” both naturally and supra-naturally.. I once had the privilege of spending a weekend with his cousin, Sir Anthony Buzzard, also an author on such topics.

  The Age of Reason by Thomas Paine; Secaucus NJ: Carol Publishing Group, 1997 – Initially published in 1794, this text is still very relevant when discussing the infallibility and inspiration of the Bible, its authorship, and its definition of God. Paine rejected Christianity, but was not an atheist. He subscribed to the religion of Deism, commonly shared by many of the foremost intellectuals in America and Europe in his time. In my estimation, Paine was one of the greatest thinkers of all time.

  Why People Believe Weird Things (abridged) by Michael Shermer; Los Angeles: Audio Renaissance, 1998 – Shermer is the director of the Skeptics Society, which promotes the scientific method of examination of life’s events. In this book he attempts to demonstrate why it is that so many people find themselves attracted to supernaturalism, conspiracy theories, religious cults, and unconventional, even controversial ideologies. Exposes the misgivings of pseudoscience, occultism, history revisionism, and so forth.

  Billions and Billions – by Carl Sagan; New York; Random House, 1997 – Sagan’s final hurrah, his first measure of business is to explain that it was Johnny Carson, and not he himself, who uttered the famous unending phrase “billions, and billions, and billions…” One has to read this book with a tear in his eye realizing that Carl is gone, and that he wrote the book knowing that his time on earth was short. He applies his vast knowledge of science to matters of everyday life in a manner that only he could – open, inviting, and easy to comprehend.

  Atlas Shrugged – by Ayn Rand, 1957 – Unfortunately, I haven’t finished this gargantuan conceptual piece of non-fiction, and since I’ve lost the damn thing I can’t tell you who published it either! But since I’m about 5/8 of the way through it, I can tell you that it is a masterpiece of dialogue and explicit detail, more so than any other piece of non-fiction I’ve experienced. Rand’s ideology of sheer, uncontested capitalism and unmerciful objectivism hits you like a 12 lb. sledge square between the eyes. The characters in the story are well defined and engagingly charismatic. Even if you are a commie-pinko-fagg*t you will still appreciate this book.

  The Meaning of Anxiety – by Rollo May; New York: W.W. Norton & Co., 1997 – May considers the concepts espoused by men like Spinoza and Pascal, analyzes the causes and reasons for human anxiety, distinguishes between fear and anxiety through socio-psychological interpretations, and concludes that anxiety is a healthful and even necessary aspect of life, challenging the contemporary notions that living free from anxiety leads to greater happiness.

  The Tao of Pooh - by Benjamin Hoff, 1982 - For the searching spiritualist who is just starting out on the long road to self-understanding, this may well be the most important book ever written! Hoof explains the tenets of Taoism using the lovable character Winnie-the-Pooh. If you've been stifled by an oppressive organized religion, eastern thought will be a welcome change for you, and will change your views on life! Learn how to "just be".

  Revelation – It’s Grand Climax at Hand! by the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society; Brooklyn, NY: WBTS of NY Inc., International Bible Students Association, 1988 – For a hilarious application of the Apocalypse fashioned after the growing pains of an Adventist sect soon to become the world’s largest publishing agency of religious material, get ahold of this 320 page book of rants, raves, and denunciations against everything from Christendom to the United Nations. Fully pictorialized with some of the most disturbing images you’ve seen since Dante’s Inferno was illustrated!
• 
  21

  Toppled Tower

  by Skimmer in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  (headline) toppled tower.

  (dateline) october 2029, brooklyn, new york; associated internet media news service.

  after a century and a half of preaching and publishing, the wtbts (watchtower bible and tract society) has closed its doors.. the group was started in the 1870s with most of its doomsday doctrines borrowed from the second adventists, another american-born religion of the 19th century.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Cygnus

  Hiya Bob,

  A couple of questions regarding the great tribulation.

  The Watchtower has taught that the great tribulation brought about on Jerusalem in the first century typified the destruction of today's modern day unfaithful Jerusalem, Christendom. Since the first great tribulation did not last several years, I cannot see how it can be reasonably speculated that the antitype would last several years.

  The 1/15/70 Watchtower provides some insight into this matter:

  "Jesus' description of it makes it plain that, like the global flood of Noah's day, the tribulation threatens all human life in the flesh. (Matt. 24:21, 22, 36-39) If allowed to continue too long, it would exterminate all 'flesh.' Hence the purpose of God is to shorten the number of 'those days' of this unparalleled 'great tribulation.'-Mark 13:19, 20."

  That indicates to me that it is the opinion of the Watchtower writer (undoubtedly Brother Franz) that the tribulation would not last very long, certainly not for years. What do you think about this piece of reasoning on God's purpose?

  Also, consider please, further comments from this Watchtower writer in regards to the length of the tribulation:

  "Paul made a significant remark in his letter to the Romans, written about the year 56 C.E. He quoted from Isaiah 10:22, 23 and said: 'It is the remnant that will be saved. For Jehovah will make an accounting on the earth, consummating it and cutting it short [or, executing it speedily; Greek, syntémno].' (Rom. 9:27, 28; 1950 edition, margin) Back in 66 C.E. and shortly thereafter the Jewish Christians fled out of Judea and Jerusalem, and thus there was an abrupt cutting short of the work of making Jewish converts in Judea and Jerusalem to be a part of the Jewish remnant. Accordingly, in 70 C.E., God's sentence of destruction upon Jerusalem and her temple was executed, not in a long-drawn-out war through a long-lasting siege, but through a surprisingly short siege due to collapse of the defense by the cooped-up rebellious Jews. Thus Jerusalem's 'great tribulation was not lengthened, but was 'cut short'. . . As with the Jerusalem of the apostles' days, Jehovah can terminate his accounting with Christendom and the rest of this system of things in a speedy way, in no prolonged order, in a reduced period of time. While He as the accurate Timekeeper has a definite day and hour for beginning the 'great tribulation,' he can lop off anything tending to lengthen it. It is his purpose to do so.-Matt. 24:21, 22, 36. . . No matter how destructive the 'great tribulation' will be, no matter how intense the destructiveness of it may become because the 'great tribulation' is concentrated within a cut-short time period, this unnumbered 'great crowd' will be saved alive."

  A concentrated, cut-short time period, which is Jehovah's purpose, does not sound like several years, Bob. Appreciate your comments.

  BTW, I won't bore you with the Watchtower's old understanding of the tribulation that started in 1914, stopped in 1918, and starts up again in the future. :-)
• 
  76

  Why Are You Here?

  by larc in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  the question, "why are you here?

  " is simple enough, and your answer may be straightforward.

  however, when i asked that of myself, i find that my answer is pretty complicated.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Cygnus

  I post here so people don't think I've gone back to the JWs.

  Or, vice-versa.
• 
  45

  Organized religion, no religion, agnostic

  by cnn77 in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i am new here trying to figure my way around...... i would appreciate it if you could say which of these fits you..... 1. still a jw.

  2. if you dont agree with the jw doctrines any longer do you belong to another religious organization now?

  3. are still religious and have no religious affiliation.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Cygnus

  6 --

  Capitalist, Objectivist, neoDarwinist, misogynist, mixologist, god hating pig
• 
  21

  Toppled Tower

  by Skimmer in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  (headline) toppled tower.

  (dateline) october 2029, brooklyn, new york; associated internet media news service.

  after a century and a half of preaching and publishing, the wtbts (watchtower bible and tract society) has closed its doors.. the group was started in the 1870s with most of its doomsday doctrines borrowed from the second adventists, another american-born religion of the 19th century.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Cygnus

  So let me get this straight. The great tribulation is going to last at least 2 1/2 years. Middle East nations will engage in war with nations capable of a nuclear strike (Russia? Israel?) and will be completely destroyed. The government has suspended free markets and the media is all but shut down. Gorbachez becomes chairman of the North American Federation and his primary concern is with jailing, reconverting, or killing Jehovah's Witnesses (MILLIONS of them)?

  Gotta give you credit for creativity, Bob.
• 
  14

  Good Bye Everyeone

  by proplog2 in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i am against official censorship.

  i feel it is each individuals responsibility to walk away from groups that you find offensive.

  although i am an a-theist i am not a-moral.. in greek mythology you have prometheus and epimetheus.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Cygnus

  I'm not a regular contributor here or anywhere else these days. I prefer chat rooms over message boards.

  Be sure to keep in touch via email, though, all right? And let me know if you find any interesting activity on AOL, if you still have an account there.
• 
  57

  Famous Last Words

  by You Know in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  the great depression had more to do with shaping the character and defining the last century than any other event, except the great wars that caused and followed the depression.

  the structure of the financial system though has radically changed since that time, in that it is many times larger, global in fact, and it is much more fragile and complex, in that it reacts nearly instantaneously to various factors.

  the average person is now much more dependent upon and indebted to the system as well.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Cygnus

  YK, I recently had to fire an employee for stealing from me. We entrusted him with a key to our establishment, and he availed himself of every last dollar we had in petty cash. Our confidence in him was completely ruined, based on one and one act of indiscretion alone.

  You've been squawking about several different ways the world economy will collapse for years now. None of them have happened. Why should I place any confidence whatsoever in anything you have to say now?

  You've been acquainted with me for four years. You know some about my personal life. You are aware of the decisions I've made in my life. In those four years my life has gotten better and better. Except for the stress and strain of running a service-oriented business, I couldn't be happier. I do not worry so much about things I cannot control; however I do look to control every possible aspect of my life as that is my nature. Do you really think I'm oblivious to the way the world works? No, I think that, as common for you, you'd rather call me names than deal with the fact that I've prospered quite well without any Jehovah to help me out.