has anyone on here ever come across the tiniest shred of evidence supporting this date for the fall of jerusalem.
i understand rolf furuli is about to but something out on this subject (see elihubooks.com), however even a table of contents has been a long time in coming from this site.
if no evidence exists what can he possibly be writing about?
Scholar,
The Society's basic argument is that we should trust the Biblical record over secular 'evidence.' Why? Because the Bible is always found to be trustworthy, and Christians would trust the Bible over profane astronomical and business records that are fallible.
So, then, how do we know that the Bible is so trustworthy in the first place?
someone reported in another thread that ray franz has grown concerned that his books have not helped those who have read them because it left them with nowhere to go.
i'm reminded of a phrase that i heard repeatedly during my 30 years as a watchtower toady.
"if this isn't the truth, then there is no truth".
I agree with proplog2 who suggests that Ray Franz is a closet atheist who hopes that his inner feelings about God are dead wrong.
.
http://www.witnessesonline.com/cgi-bin/cgiwrap/witnessesonline/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=000098
A very obvious spoof designed to make Jehovah's Witnesses look bad. The (apostate) author ought to be ashamed of himself.
i thought this article from the september 2001 kingdom ministry was very interesting.. get out there and sell those books!!!.
is it an obstacle to preaching?.
most people lead busy lives.
Seems to me that this article has much scriptural support. Perhaps you people have a larger problem with the Bible's counsel than with the Watchtower itself.
i have gotten a little mean in my old age.
my sister-in-law is a born again church of god life time member and sometimes is a little dogmatic.
i love to point out fallacies in her religious thinking.. this might have been a little unfeeling on my part but she was talking to my wife about a tragic happening in her life 26 years ago.
Rex,
If people go to paradise when they die, why do they need a resurrection?
" (watchtower p. 56, 1894) .
" (watchtower, p. 150, may 15, 1922) .
" (watchtower, jan. 1, 1924, p5) .
Brutus,
Why don't you cite the webpage where you are cutting and pasting all of your material from?
if the organization did not actually prophesy the end in 1925 and 1975, then how come so many witnesses left the faith immediately afterwards?
("they lost roughly three-quarters of the movement between 1925 and 1928, then suffered huge losses after 1975, when the end didn't come as they had implied over and over again," said jim penton, an ex-witness who writes entries on jehovah's witnesses for the encyclopedia americana.
if the watchtower organization rejects others calling them "inspired" yet the watchtower organization does call themselves "god's spirit-directed prophet" what is the difference?
Your cut-and-paste questions are easy to answer.
Revelation 21:6,7 says that conquerors will be "sons" of the Alpha and Omega. Jesus never called his faithful followers his "sons" but rather his "brothers." Jesus was first and last by means of his resurrection, which the context clearly indicates. So while Jesus can share titles with his Father, they are not the same person, just as Jesus is called an "apostle" in Revelation, whereas there are many apostles, since apostle is a title.
Isaiah 44:24 was God declaring that all other deities which people claim to be gods are not gods at all. The issue of Christ's prehuman existence is not being discussed. Jesus is a mighty god by the power of Almighty God Jehovah.
Colossians 1:16 is talking about Jesus' role and function in God's Kingdom purposes. Jesus also fills the role and function of Michael, as many commentators in Christendom also acknowledge. We need not take such designations of office hyperliterally. Jesus is more than a mere angel, he is the most powerful personage in existence outside of Jehovah God.
144,000 is a literal number because it is mentioned twice in Revelation and is in contrast with the unlimited number of the great crowd. Paul said that the spiritual temple is made of up spiritual Jews, that Jews as a race are no longer favored by God.
The soul is not merely the body. One's soul represents his life force, and life prospects. It is what animates the body and is what is restored by God at the time of resurrection.
Jesus is a god in the sense that he is a powerful entity. Other persons besides Jesus in positions of responsibility and power are called "God" or gods in scripture (Moses, angels, human judges). Deuteronomy is not discussing Jesus or angels. It is discussing false gods of other nations.
Nebuchadnezzar is called "king of kings" in Daniel. How can that be since Jesus is also called "king of kings?" Does that make them the same person?
Jesus might have had two nails through his hands. We don't know exactly what sort of instrument Jesus died on, or what exact method was used. We do know that venerating the cross as an icon is wrong.
Luke 23:43 is rendered "truly I say to you today, you will be with me in Paradise" in the NWT because there is no grounds for believing that the man Jesus spoke to would go to heaven immediately, or that very day. He was to wait for the resurrection during Judgement Day, which is still yet future.
Moffatt's translation says, "means my body" and "means my blood." LeFerve's says "represents." At Matthew 26:29 Jesus clearly says that what he is drinking is "the fruit of the vine." Jesus called himself "the light of the world" and "the true vine," but that didn't mean he was literallys such things nor did he imply a miraculous transformation of some kind. Paul paraphrased Jesus at 1 Cor 11:25 as saying "this cup is the new covenant in my blood." The wine represents Jesus' shed blood.
Three verses after John 20:28 John says that what he wrote was to show that Jesus was the SON of God. That would have been a perfect place to affirm that Jesus was GOD but John did not do that. Therefore we must conclude that Thomas' expression was of another nature than to be referring to Jesus as the God of Israel.
If Witnesses leave the organization because expectations of Jehovah's new system did not materialize, it shows that they served for a date and not for Jehovah. The Watchtower has apologized for such error and recognizes that this old system has gone on longer than expected. But it is Jehovah's will, and nobody or nothing is more important than that. Regardless of what humans perceive, Jehovah's day is coming right on schedule.
The Watchtower has never claimed to be inspired in the same sense that the Bible writers were. They claim to be led by God's spirit collectively as appointed ambassadors of God's kingdom in that they preach and teach God's message and good news of the Kingdom as understood by means of the holy scriptures.
Yes, the Society has taught scripturally incorrect things in the past, and may make further adjustments as the world scene changes. The fundamental truths never change.
What JWs were DF'd before 1995 based on their divergent opinion on the generation teaching?
If a person tells another JW that he rejects the ransom, or prays to the Holy Spirit, then such a person needs spiritual readjustment. Minor details on certain issues such as speculations about the thousand-year reign are not matters which would get anyone into trouble, unless a person makes a habit of spreading his personal viewpoint as if it were the rock-solid truth. Every organization of persons, religious or otherwise, has certain statements of faith, conduct, or standards and codes by which the members are expected to follow.
1935 was when the great crowd was recognized. Obviously, since Jehovah's Witnesses are the only ones preparing a people in an organized fashion to survive the great tribulation, the great crowd would be associated with them. 1935 is not a biblical date, but it makes sense that the heavenly calling would cease than, based on the numbers of the anointed remnant and the great increase that would soon follow.
JWs count Memorial partakers. It is not an exact science.
JWs are called Jehovah's Witnesses because they witness for Jehovah. Rather simple. JWs call themselves Christians as an identity, but their purpose is to witness for Jehovah.
It is only rational and reasonable to believe that the original manuscripts would contain the Tetragrammaton when quoting from the Hebrew Scritures.
Jesus Christ is God's agent of salvation. Acts 2:21 says that the name we should call upon is Jehovah's (quoting from Joel). We are ransomed by Jesus' death and sacrifice, but it is Jehovah's will and plan.
JWs use "Jehovah" because of its tradition and its common usage. JWs also say "Jehoshaphat" and "Jeremiah." Noone criticizes them for that.
The presidency of the Watchtower has changed significantly over the years. There are now committees which are in charge of doctrine and policy. The primary and principle doctrines of Russell and Rutherford have not changed dramatically. Milton Henschel is not a Bible scholar and does not make JW policies or come up with JW doctrines by himself.
Christendom has rejected Jehovah's pure worship by its use of images, saints, pagan celebrations, wars, and immoral conduct. JWs have made minor adjustments in teachings over the years primarily those of an eschatological nature, which is to be expected especially since first century Christianity also went through growing pains and increased knowledge of the way.
JWs believe that a class of anointed Christians has always existed on earth since Pentecost, 33 CE. It is not very important to worry about who made up the "slave" during those years. Brother Russell mentioned many men who he gratefully credited with helping him understand certain Bible doctrines, such as the ransom. What is important is the focus on the truth and one's ministry today.
Jesus is not God so he is not worshipped as is God. Obeisence is perfectly legitimate. Human rulers also properly received obeisence in the Bible -- the word does not always have to mean worship.
In the Foreword to the Kingdom Interlinear, it says clearly that Jehovah is used when Kyrios appears because it is either a direct quotation from the Hebrew Scriptures where "Jehovah" occurs, or it agrees with Hebrew translations of the Greek Scriptures which restore the name where the text calls for such.
Jehovah is a proper name, not a title. Rom 10:9, 1Cor 12:3, Phil 2:11, 2Thess 2:1, and Rev 22:21 all use "Lord" as a title for Jesus Christ. Rendering Kyrios as "Jehovah" in these texts would make them grammatically clumsy and would be inappropriate.
The "temple" is Jesus' soul. The soul "of" his body. Jesus' life, in other words.
The Bible uses personification all the time. If the Holy Spirit were an actual person, why doesn't the Holy Spirit talk more often?
ego eimi is translated "I have been" because it has scholarly support for such a rendering. "I am" is clumsy, and besides, the discussion was centered around Jesus' age and authority, not his identity.
Cygnus, hardly stumped at all
dr. muramoto and myself have had to take a step back to care for personal.
issues but we hope to be back to full speed next year.. we have completed work on a major article to be published in an american.
medical journal later this year.. i am nearly done with another article on the blood issue for a different.
Lee, you know I love you, man. You are one of the coolest human beings I know. Do what you gotta do.
:: he didn't merely suspend it -- he substituted another for it.
in our case here, therefore, god's telling abraham to kill isaac was by definition not murder.
: first, i am not sure what i believe in this case.
: I am sure that Jesus never used the expletives that you do
Jesus was a hypocrite. He said that a person calling his brother a "fool" was liable to the fiery Gehenna. Then he went and called his Jewish brothers (and spiritual heads, I might add) "fools."
Paul felt compelled to apologize when he called the high priest a white-washed grave, and even quoted scripture to reprove himself.
I usually don't bother arguing the ethics of Bible characters with literalists. A true believer can find all sorts of divine justification for the crap found in his holy text.
"all things are continuing exactly the same as from creation's beginning" is the thinking attributed to those ridiculers of christ's presence.
because the sign of christ's invisible presence must be accepted on faith and faith is not a possession of all people, faithless ones are willfully blinded to the evidence that the system is nearing its hour of judgment.
in this the 2nd week of august 2001, the evidence steadily mounts that apostate ridiculers of jehovah's word are very badly mistaken and about to be spanked with a very large paddle.
Three years ago, You Know said on H2O:
"The onrushing global financial collapse is certain to provide the necessary spark to detonate an earth wide explosion; which, in the coming days and weeks of 1998, (probably an 'October suprise' since you have asked me to be specific) will rock the present political order off its foundation, and usher in the necessary circumstances which will result in a final confrontation with Jehovah."
Many believed that he wasn't for real and was simply having fun at our expense, those of us that took him seriously. After this last "October Surprise" comment, I am finding it difficult to believe he is anything other than an extremely bored and extremely inactive JW who's agenda has been basically to watch the reactions of people to his facetious rantings.
