Posts by CalebInFloroda

69

Why Me?

by John Aquila in

do you ever wonder why out of all the witnesses, you are the one that woke up?

i wonder many times why me.

i know many men and women that are much, much better persons than me; either they are much smarter, more humble, kinder, more successful, or just better persons all around.

While we are agreeing that the days and/or years the person remaining in denial are not periods of "cognitive dissonance," I was stating that some others have made the mistake of saying that these long periods of being in denial are "cognitive dissonance" in themselves.

Long periods of denial can be caused by cognitive dissonance, but they aren't the same thing.

As for my pastor friend, she did not dig in deeper, she let go of it as soon as she had a moment to herself to look at the matter. The days following 9/11 were not days of "refusal to let go" as she compartmentalized the situation to avoid confronting the cognitive dissonance. But after about two weeks she had time to herself, discussed it with friends like me, and discarded these views as illogical when she could. Before it was not possible.

Many people had to compartmentalize to get through those days. Rescue workers at the scenes of destruction had to compartmentalize their fears and frustration and just work as if on "automatic" like my pastor friend. Most didn't have the luxury of stopping tand dealing with their situation. Some stayed in this mode for quite some time because that is what they had to do.

This is not the same as denial as one does in an ideology when faced with facts that conflict with one's thoughts. These people were moved by a sense of duty to complete their jobs which they vowed to perform. Rescue workers consisted of police, firefighters, and others like clergy who had to do their jobs without thinking of themselves.

My friend had to selflessly think of others for days before stopping to consider her own self and struggles. This was not "digging in deeper." This was done out of her duty to serve the public. What Witnesses do is a selfish choice to avoid dealing with the cognitive dissonance. What my friend did was very different.

But to clarify, my statements were mainly directed at the way others have been using the term. Your use of "collective cognitive dissonance" implied that an ideology thrives on this, wherein the reality is that they thrive because they don't deal with it or take steps to avoid situations that cause the dissonance in the first place. That made me feel I should add something lest someone make the mistake as to what this dissonance was.

69

Why Me?

by John Aquila in

do you ever wonder why out of all the witnesses, you are the one that woke up?

i wonder many times why me.

i know many men and women that are much, much better persons than me; either they are much smarter, more humble, kinder, more successful, or just better persons all around.

CalebInFloroda

@done4good

Great comments. One thing you brought out I thought I should mention.

I often read a lot of people make use of the term "cognitive dissonance," using it in reference to Jehovah's Witnesses. In reality, most people who use that term are using it wrong.

"Cognitive dissonance" first of all is a scientific hypothesis, used to describe mental stress which can cause emotional responses of survival. It actually has little to do with why people are in cults or ideological groups like the Jehovah's Witnesses, and it isn't universally accepted in behavioral science.

"Cognitive dissonance" is what a good friend of mine experienced on 9/11. She is a pastor of a Protestant church, with a theology that embraces the belief that America is a "Christian" nation, under G-d. When the attacks occurred against the Pentagon and the Twin Towers, she went into a daze for several days. It isn't that she stopped doing her work as a pastor. In fact she was even more busy than normal due to many people having questions, the need to add additional services, etc.

But my pastor friend confided in me that she was running on automatic. She had to, as the experience shook her faith to the foundations. "How could G-d allow such a thing to happen?" she said, explaining the connection between the events and why she was just "going through the motions." She believed that America was part of G-d's plan, a sort of "Promised Land" in the great scheme of things. As such America was supposed to be untouchable in her mind.

What that pastor was going through is "cognitive dissonance." She had two conflicting states she was dealing with: the first, a strong Christian faith that saw the United States of America as a nation protected by Providence and second, the fact that the U.S. had undergone a horrific terrorist attack of such a grand scale never before seen on American soil.

That is "cognitive dissonance," that state of two separate conflicting "truths" that the pastor was dealing with. Because she was a pastor of a church, she had to compartmentalize the mental battle and run on "automatic."

Granted, I don't subscribe to her unique view of the U.S. in G-d's "plan," but beside that the woman was quite mainstream. She fought for equal rights for the poor, the disabled, the LGBT community, and ministered to those with HIV and AIDS. In fact she was quite sensible and logical that it surprised me to hear her tell me she had this belief and that it was causing her such a crisis of conscience. It still doesn't fit the picture of the woman I know.

Cognitive dissonance doesn't keep a person in a state of denial either. It usually makes a person choose one path or the other, true, but often "wakes" people up. My pastor friend ditched this theological view, but still remains a faithful Christian minister to this day.

If cognitive dissonance is as real as most believe it is (and I am one of those who feel the theory has merit), then Jehovah's Witnesses are not in this state. If they ever were, they chose the path of accepting the Watchtower brand of ideology. But it is more likely that they don't listen to anything that causes this state of stress in the first place. People cannot thrive under such stress. They shut down.

What people may be trying to say is that some JWs are compartmentalizing when and if they have to endure a moment of cognitive dissonance. That is not healthy either, but it is putting something "on a back burner" to deal with later, so to speak. Eventually the pot will boil over and the stress will build and they will have to make a choice.

But cognitive dissonance is not denial. It is the state that usually gets one to realize they have possibly been in denial.

69

Why Me?

by John Aquila in

do you ever wonder why out of all the witnesses, you are the one that woke up?

i wonder many times why me.

i know many men and women that are much, much better persons than me; either they are much smarter, more humble, kinder, more successful, or just better persons all around.

CalebInFloroda

There is another possibility, John, and it may not be easy for you to swallow at this point.

I never asked the questions you are asking. One of my best friends who left has never asked them either. I have several friends who were in the Watchtower, and only 1 out of 15 ever brought this up.

This is the point where you might get mad if I say anymore, and it's a normal response. Usually when you tell a person what I am about to say you get a lot of denial, anger, hostility, and in some cases even hateful and violent responses. So take a deep breath...

What you are experiencing is called "survivor's guilt," and it's not uncommon for people who have survived traumatic events like disasters, car accidents, plane crashes, and even escaping cults. Some Holocaust survivors have it, and it was the experience of the main character in the novel and film "Ordinary People" for which Timothy Hutton won an Oscar.

"Survivor's guilt" is a symptom of post-traumatic stress syndrome. It's generally characterized by asking "why me?" Survivors often believe they were not good enough to survive and that others deserved it more. They can blame G-d for not being there to save "more worthy" people. It can be accompanied with other forms of distress like unipolar disorder.

Now I am not a psychologist or medical doctor, and I can't say for sure that you are dealing with this, but it's not uncommon. Sometimes the only symptom is anger.

The truth of the matter is that many factors play a part in why some people survive and some don't. I'm not the one to go into a full discussion about this because if there is a slight possibility you may be showing signs of PTS syndrome, you should see a medical doctor. It can be as destructive as the disaster or cult if not treated.

Not everyone feels this way. And not everybody who "wakes up" chooses or has the courage to leave. And, to be honest, not everyone is really "asleep" in cults. There's still debate about it, and probably always will be, but there may be a lot more free will and less brainwashing in systems like the Watchtower than people would like to believe. The only experience you need to worry about and can is yours.

39

The Vedas - Scientific Knowledge - Prophecy - The Truth?

by LAWHFol in

the vedas are the core sacred texts for the people of the east.

generally the vedas are to the east as the hebrew scriptures are to the west.

supporters of the bible, boast of it's scientific accuracy,prophetic accuracy & general infallibility.

CalebInFloroda

My thought is what's this obsession with raising a written work to the status of revelation?

Joseph Smith claims to find a book of gold plates that becomes The Book of Mormon...

Charles Taze Russell decides that the Bible is the basis for all doctrine and religious practices...

L. Ron Hubbard publishes Dianetics, and the book is studied and practiced by Scientologists everywhere...

What is it with enlightenment from a book?

Even the Jewish Bible is not used by Jews as if it were the ultimate revelation from G-d, the final say on science, religion, morals, taxes, etc. You will find Christians using our religious texts this way, but not us.

So what's the big obsession with making a book of any kind the font of knowledge? The ultimate rule? I don't get it.

11

Judgement

by davidmitchell in

https://jwleaks.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/2015-ewhc-1722-qb.pdfjust had a look at this 2015 legal judgement.

one of a number of things that caught my eye was the statement in (11) that "the organisational structure of jehovahs witnesses is modelled on first century christianity as described in the bible".er, hardly.

try acts 2: 44-45"all the believers were together and had everything in common.

CalebInFloroda

Acts 2.44-45 is speaking of Jewish Christians who still lived as part of the world of Jewry.

These Christians lived in Jerusalem and unlike Gentile Christians observed the Mosaic Law as stated in Acts 21.17-26. In a Torah-observant world these Christians were able to and even encouraged by Mosaic Law to share what they owned with the less-fortunate among them. Read in this context the verses in Acts 2 are stating that these Jews helped fellow believers in Jesus of Nazareth among them as a priority. It does not mean they ignored other non-Christian Jews who under Torah they were obliged to help assist, nor is there any indications that Gentile Christians ever did the exact same thing in their communities or were even capable of doing something similar. JWs are not capable of imitating first-century Christianity as they had no New Testament at the time and were governed by an apostolic college that was composed mainly of Jewish Christians that still saw themselves obliged to observe Torah.

Luke 14.25-33 are a series of hyperboles. Jesus is not demanding a literal application of verse 33 otherwise he would be asking to literally hate their parents and undergo literal crucifixion. It would not be fair to judge JWs by failing to apply this text literally.

It would also be illogical to demand a literal application of Matthew 5.42. This section of the Sermon the Mount, Matthew 5.38-42, also employs hyperbole. The text is speaking about avoiding retaliation, not actually telling people how to give in charitable ways. If people applied this literally they could go bankrupt themselves. The "giving" is not the primary point of verse 42, it imeans not refusing anyone who is asking. In other words be as cooperative as you can, even going that extra mile, to avoid situations that might tempt you to retaliate, and do this with anyone who may push you in this direction.

While I have no love for the JWs, it does no good to misapply Scripture as they do and judge them according to failed and untested exegesis.

39

The Vedas - Scientific Knowledge - Prophecy - The Truth?

by LAWHFol in

the vedas are the core sacred texts for the people of the east.

generally the vedas are to the east as the hebrew scriptures are to the west.

supporters of the bible, boast of it's scientific accuracy,prophetic accuracy & general infallibility.

CalebInFloroda

Actually the New Testament is a product of what we now call Western Civilization.

The Tanakh, which Christians call the Old Testament, is actually a product of Eastern thought. Even the Jewish exegesis of it is far different than what is claimed by Christians...

1. The Scriptures are scientifically accurate.

Not in the eyes of Jews. The Scriptures are not the basis for our religion or culture, but a product of these two things. They reflect ancient ways of thinking, employ old and unscientific cosmogonies, even its views on G-d are ancient and primitive when compared with modern Jewish thought,

2. If the Bible is flawed, G-d is flawed.

Again, a Christian thought. The G-d of Abraham and Sarah is not perfect in the way Christians demand and define perfection. In Jewish theology and Scripture G-d is evolving with humanity and learns how to love properly and deal more justly through interchange with humanity. In Judaism it is not wrong to say that it seems G-d created humanity to fill a need in order to move beyond what was lacking in the Creator.

3. Abrahamic Faith

Faith and belief are irrelevant concepts to Jews. We don't "believe" in G-d in any manner similar to Christians who believe it is a requisite to have faith in G-d's existence. Instead G-d is encountered, responded to, interacted with, even challenged. There is no such thing as the "Abrahamic faith." Jews are in a covenant with G-d, and this leaves some of them in active participation with the Creator and others guessing at G-d as agnostics and other Jews dealing with the G-d concept as atheists. But each Jew still remains part of the Tribe, and each can still fully participate in its rich spiritual tradition, theology, and work together to fulfill the aims of Tikklun Olam.

4. Truth is found in written texts.

That is too limited a concept for the children of Abraham and Sarah. Truth can be found where we least expect it. Even the Hebrew Scriptures are not the basis of religious truth, as our "truth" existed for centuries before we wrote them down as Scripture. Our religion was totally functioning with a theology and Temple before Scripture was complete. In fact Scripture was an afterthought, not the beginning for us.

So yes, one can probably find many truths from sources like the Vedas. But you may need to revise your views about the Scriptures of the Hebrews. They are tied to a very foreign theology that many Christians are still ignorant of after 2000 years. Some of your comments about them are in need of a bit revision.

24

Is Satan really a liar, and the father of the lie?

by Israel Ricky Gonzales in

5 for god knows that in the very day you eat from it, your eyes will be opened and you will be like god, knowing good and bad.. .

genesis 3:22. jehovah god then said: here the man has become like one of us in knowing good and bad..".

for god knows that in the very day you eat from it, your eyes will be opened and you will be like god, knowing good and bad.?.

CalebInFloroda

Giordano is right about the original Jewish view of these Genesis texts.

As a Jew I can attest that this narrative is neither viewed as an "original sin" story nor is the snake viewed as "Satan the Devil." It is merely one of three origin stories in Genesis that explains how Jews see themselves in relation to G-d.

Like Israel, Jews "wrestle" with the G-d concept. We ask questions, we argue, we refuse to submit. This is very different from the submissive "listen and obey" attitude of JWs. Eve's actions and Adam's response are reflecting what Jews saw in themselves in relation to G-d, describing the then current view of the relationship between the covenant people and the Almighty as if it originated in Adam and Eve's experience with G-d as well. Jews were not claiming that this was the history of the Gentiles.

We view "Satan" as that within us that fails to reach the potential we all have for being just, good, and reclaiming freedom for all humans. While the Christian view is to blame another creature for our failings, Jews believe it is better to take responsibility for these as to be able to repair and redeem humanity from the problems we as the human race allow to befall upon ourselves.

20

Perfection? Ponder this...

by OverlappingGeneralizations in

hello all- nice forum.i have been contemplating a fade for a while, and i have been reading various sites such as this one.

i have seen all kinds of things that have made me think.

but something came to mind lately, and i wanted to throw it out there-satan was cast down to the earth, and he is supposedly the cause of all imperfection.

CalebInFloroda

Imagine a religion where there is no Satan the Devil...

...where the Creator is not as perfect as many claim and that the Almighty can grow and learn things...

...which states that the condition people are in now is not far off from what Adam and Eve were like when they were first created.

Oh, and it was the religion Jesus and his parents practiced too.

Yep, ancient and modern Judaism has never recognized the same ideals of perfection that Christianity and especially groups like the JWs demands of G-d and humans.

And while there may be wicked spirits (or spirits who act wickedly), many Jews have no "Satan the Devil" in their theology. In fact when read in the original Hebrew, there is no Satan, not even in Job!

And while G-d is perfect, this doesn't mean that G-d doesn't have room to grow or learn. In fact Jews see in Scripture the possibility that G-d created humans to challenge and inspire growth in the Almighty. G-d is not necessarily all loving, not exactly as Christians believe anyway. G-d learns love and patience through dealings with humans. In Jewish theology that is what G-d's perfection is like, very different from the perfection of Watchtower teachings.

And that means we are not far from "perfection" now either if we take the Jewish view into account. Humanity evolves toward it along with G-d. "Satan the Devil" is often seen as the personification of anything that holds us back to those Jews who recognize "Satan" as directly personified in Scripture (but again, a direct reading in Hebrew also allows for reading the texts as there being no devil at all).

Because of the close ties these two religions have, and since the above views are part of Scriptural Hebrew exegesis, that makes them possibilities as well, or at least something to be considered when pondering these questions.

Perhaps there is no Satan to blame for humankind's own failures. Perhaps our own evolution includes further evolving in morality and justice. Perhaps the idea that G-d grows in union with the creation made in G-d's image is more realistic than trying to make some Biblical narratives fit the Creator into a peg designed for perfection that is impossible to reach or isn't even perfection in the first place.

Can humanity shed ancient and primitive views of G-d and Satan and perfection for more evolved views of spirituality based on and in partnership with a reality that is practical?

29

Jesus is not Michael the Archangel here is why

by paradisebeauty in

one of the biggest missunderstanding and unbiblical teaching of the jw's is that jesus is michael the archangel.

here is what proffessor anthony buzzard has to say about this:.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=puqzffyxno0.

CalebInFloroda

@nicolaou

I'm Jewish so I don't believe Jesus is the Messiah. Also Jews don't base their beliefs on the Scriptures; the Scriptures are based on our beliefs. So I am neither arguing here for a belief in Jesus, Christianity, etc.

The actual Christian teaching is that Jesus is the Incarnation of G-d, not an angel. The expression "son of God" in the New Testament in reference to Jesus is a Semitic expression which means "of the same cloth," similar to the English idioms, "spitting image" or "chip off the old block." The title "Son of God" in reference to Jesus expresses what is referred to as the Epiphany in Christianity: the realization that God was present in the Person of Jesus. The Epiphany is a teaching that predates any writings of the New Testament, though it is not an explicit teaching of the Trinity as it only deals with the identity of Jesus but not his nature or that of the Holy Spirit.

The thread is here discussing whether the JW theology is compatible with this. The Witnesses believe that "Son of God" means what it does in English instead of what it means in Semitic idiom, namely "male offspring of God." Because of this anachronistic reading, the JWs have adopted the idea that Jesus as likely the archangel Michael.

The question therefore is not whether the Bible's claim about Jesus is true, but whether or not the JW exegesis fits all of Chrstian theolog. Remember Christianity existed for at least 40 or 50 years before the first Gospel account was written. That is an entire generation or lifetime back then. There was already a living Christian theology and liturgy in place which affected how these texts were written. Like Judaism, the New Testament is not the basis for Christian claims, it is a reflection of them.

As a Jew I have to admit that there is some historical basis for accepting that Jesus of Nazareth walked the earth. However because his followers defined him in terms of an Epiphany and the Incarnation, many Jews could not accept such views as this violated the Shema in their view. This rejection of Jesus as Messiah was pre-New Testament, not after the New Testament. The New Testament was neither the basis nor foundation of the stories about Jesus, the same stories which by the mid-first century had already been rejected by the Jewish community at large before being written.

In conclusion, one cannot merely argue or try to prove the claims of New Testament Scripture in reference to Jesus. The origins of the claims about him are far more ancient. One needs to delve into the most ancient theology of the Church. Since it's claims about Jesus state that Christ is the Incarnation of YHWH, the Church expects the Epiphany to be accepted on the basis of faith, not evidence.

The challenge of the Church is not whether there is empirical evidence for their claims, but rather will people put faith in what they have. The New Testament merely extended these claims into written form.

Our disbelief in these aside, the point of thread is trying to show that the JW argument is flawed. Disbelief in spirits and deities is a conclusion, true, but not an efficacious means of examining their exegetical approach.

Regardless what either you or I believe on the subject of Jesus or G-d, those things often have to be put aside to demonstrate other points at hand.

29

Jesus is not Michael the Archangel here is why

by paradisebeauty in

one of the biggest missunderstanding and unbiblical teaching of the jw's is that jesus is michael the archangel.

here is what proffessor anthony buzzard has to say about this:.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=puqzffyxno0.

CalebInFloroda

@Vidqun

You’ve created a paradox that disproves your argument.

At 1 Thessalonians 4:16, the command of Jesus Christ for the resurrection to begin is described as “the archangel’s call,” and Jude 9 identifies the archangel with Michael.

Employing the same formula you do here, you are also saying that Jesus is Jehovah.

The text at 1 Thessalonians 4.16 not only says Jesus begins the resurrection with “the archangel’s call” but that Jesus also commands them to rise “with the sound of God’s trumpet.”

If the fact that Jesus employs “the archangel’s call” means that Jesus is Michael the Archangel, then the same logic would mean that you believe that Jesus is also the Almighty since Jesus has the control of and uses “God’s trumpet.”

This would further mean that Jehovah is also Michael the Archangel. I doubt this is what you believe.

You see when you use Scripture, your logic has to hold up under all scrutiny. The rule is simple: what is good for the goose is good for the gander. If logic applied in one instances proves something, then the same logic proves the same thing in any and every other case.

If using the “archangel’s call” makes Jesus the same as Michael the Archangel, then using “God’s trumpet” also makes Jesus the same as Jehovah. And if Jesus is Michael the Archangel, then Jehovah is also Michael the Archangel.

But that would go against Scripture.

Hebrews chapter 1 tells us that no angel of any kind, not even an archangel is the same as Jesus:

The Son became so much greater than the other messengers, such as angels, that he received a more important title than theirs.

After all, when did God ever say to any of the angels:

You are my Son.
Today I have become your Father?

Or, even,

I will be his Father,
and he will be my Son?

But then, when he brought his firstborn into the world, he said,

All of God’s angels must worship him.

He talks about the angels:

He’s the one who uses the spirits for his messengers
and who uses flames of fire as ministers.

But he says to his Son,

God, your throne is forever
and your kingdom’s scepter is a rod of justice.
You loved righteousness and hated lawless behavior.
That is why God, your God,
has anointed you with oil instead of your companions.

And he says,

You, Lord, laid the earth’s foundations in the beginning,
and the heavens are made by your hands.
They will pass away,
but you remain.
They will all wear out like old clothes.
You will fold them up like a coat.
They will be changed like a person changes clothes,
but you stay the same,
and the years of your life won’t come to an end.

When has he ever said to any of the angels,

Sit at my right side
until I put your enemies under your feet like a footstool?

Aren’t all the angels ministering spirits who are sent to serve those who are going to inherit salvation?

—To the Hebrews 1.4-14, italics added.