Posts by lovelylil

51

First mention of the Catholic Church

by Amazing1914 in

jw
friends

as i am completing a paper for brci, i found something quite interesting.

the very first mention of the "catholic church" was made in the year 107, in st. ignatius letter to the smyrnaeans.

st. ignatius was bishop of antioch for forty-years, being appointed by the apostle peter.

lovelylil

Can someone point me to where Christ Jesus said communion with the saints means we can pray to them? Can anyone show scriptually where anyone in the early christian church prayed to a saint? Did not Jesus give us the model prayer and tell us to pray to our heavenly father? Christ also says that "whatever you ask me, in my name", I will give it. If I can ask Christ for something in his name, why would I ask Saint Peter, or Paul or Mary? Jesus is the only High Priest, our mediator and we are subject to him. The intercession of the saints is a man made doctrine not supported by any scripture.

Please do not think I am siding with the Jehovah's Witnesses. I am not a witness anymore. Nor, did I agree with a lot of their teachings. But I was a Catholic and do understand the Catholic faith. All churches have written thier own histories and have tried to say theirs alone was founded on the Apostles and is closest to the early Christians. I have had Baptists, JWs, Mormons, Catholics and many others claim the say thing. There is no evidence in the Bible at all that says a Pope or anyone else can make someone a Saint. God is the one that tells you wether or not you are a Saint (begotten by Holy Spirit). No where are we ever told to pray to saints. When the Apostle John bowed to even an Angel the Angel told him not to do that because he should only bow down to God.

Christ says "I am the way, and the life and the truth, no one gets to the father except through me".

51

First mention of the Catholic Church

by Amazing1914 in

jw
friends

as i am completing a paper for brci, i found something quite interesting.

the very first mention of the "catholic church" was made in the year 107, in st. ignatius letter to the smyrnaeans.

st. ignatius was bishop of antioch for forty-years, being appointed by the apostle peter.

lovelylil

Amazing,

Did you know that there is evidence that the bible we have from the early church fathers may be missing books that the Apostles read from? I have several of these including the books of Enoch, Jashar, and Baruch. These three, among others are mentioned in the bible and the bible writers quoted from them. Although the early church fathers claimed they were historical only and not inspired, I feel if the Apostles and others that we know were God inspired used them, we should have the opportunity to use them also. I have the Didache too which is the teachings of the 12 Apostles. That is my point that the early Church Fathers decided what should constitute the bible we have today. Which there is evidence that at one time there were over 80 books in the Bible. But some where taken out. The early church fathers took out Enoch because they favored Revelation. Someone mentioned the other day and I think it is true also that the early church fathers were biased. they also chose books to make up the bible as we know it today that they felt were in agreement with their beliefs.

I only mentioned about the bias because you mentioned several churches (the other day) that you felt had Holy Spirit and while I agree that Cults do not have Holy Spirit which can be attested to by the scriptures that give us what to look for to see if someone has the spirit, I would just like to get the point out there that it is not the religious institutions that have Holy Spirit but rather the individual people. At Pentecost Holy Spirit was poured out individually on each Christian. That is the same today. And I know of many Christians of all denominations that have Holy Spirit and are proving it by their works.

I am with Poodlehead thought that it seems you are saying in this thread that the Catholic Church is the closet to early Christianity. I will even disagree that the Catholic Church has always had the same doctrines as Poodle stated, they have added in many practices thru out the years. Martin Luther made that very plain in his treatise against the Church. I have ready many, many books about the Catholic churches and we cannot even say they are closet to the early Christians. Please read my last post to Poodle for some evidence of additions made by this Church.

I am also just saying that NO religious institution today can claim that they are the ones closet to early Christianity. Because Christ did not start a religion. As a matter of fact, he introduced a whole new idea in doing things which was to get rid of the institutions and heirarchy and go right thru him (our only high priest) to God. And worship in Spirit and Truth without the confinement of religious structures and man made creeds. Remember why the Pharisees wanted him dead? They said that the people would listen to him and they will loose their positions. For all those who were made free in Christ, the religious institutions have no hold on us any longer. Not to say we do not need fellowship with some in these institutions but we are not tied to them any longer. We are free agents in christ. and we can worship at home, at work, in the park, in our bedroom, in a church institution if we wish, or not.

Looking forward to your paper.

51

First mention of the Catholic Church

by Amazing1914 in

jw
friends

as i am completing a paper for brci, i found something quite interesting.

the very first mention of the "catholic church" was made in the year 107, in st. ignatius letter to the smyrnaeans.

st. ignatius was bishop of antioch for forty-years, being appointed by the apostle peter.

lovelylil

Poodlehead,

I am sorry I forgot about addressing the communion on weekly basis. Christ did not give any specific instructions as to how many times you should take communion. Some do it annually at the anniversary of when he had the Last supper with his Diciples. But others wish to take it more often.

Christ said as often as we do this, we keep proclaiming his death until he arrives. Some say because he says "as often as you do this", it means no specific number of times is given. There does seem to be some evidence that the early diciples at least did this weekly on their Sabbath that they observed still, at least for a time. I have not yet researched that far to give my opinion on either way. But, I think it is a matter left up to the individuals conscience. Lilly

51

First mention of the Catholic Church

by Amazing1914 in

jw
friends

as i am completing a paper for brci, i found something quite interesting.

the very first mention of the "catholic church" was made in the year 107, in st. ignatius letter to the smyrnaeans.

st. ignatius was bishop of antioch for forty-years, being appointed by the apostle peter.

lovelylil

poodle head,

Here are some scriptures that may help you. These show the early christians beliefs when the Apostles were still alive:

Christ is the only mediator between God and Man - this would negate prayer to saints see 1Timothy 2:5

You are to call no one on earth by the term "Father", (in a religious sense that is not paternal) except God. See Matthew 23:9

They did not have to abstain from foods on certain days (Lent) and were not forbidden to marry. (no vow of celebacy. I am not talking about the priesthood for the Israelite nation, but this was done away with in Christianity) See 1 Timothy 4:3

They were to have no idols in worship. This was first brought out in Mosaic Laws but Christ did say we are to worship in Spirit and Truth and there are no accounts of early christians using relics or idols for worship. See Exodus 34:17, Lev. 19:4, 26:1, Duet. 32.21.

Hope these bible texts help. Lilly

45

Lets say you went to a meeting, list what would irritiate you...

by JH in

jw
friends

.

in my case, it was always the length of the meetings that bothered me.. no matter what meeting it is, you have to get there prepared, and that means lots of time reading the darn literature.. another thing that would irritate me, is all the magazines that come in faster than i can read.. i'll let you guys add to this list.. .

.

lovelylil

When they would thank the "faithful slave" for the spiritual food instead of Jesus Christ. This bothered me even more once I found out that the whole "faithful slave" thing was a complete sham anyway.

22

What age group has to sacrifice the most to be a JW?

by JH in

jw
friends

.

what age group has it easier or harder to be a jw?

lovelylil

I think school aged kids. They have to sacrifice friends, social events, school events. Lots of things. And they are always the wierd kids in school due to not saluting the flag and also not doing holidays. I am so thankful that I got out while my kids still had time left to adjust. And kids seem to adjust pretty rapidly. We have been out about two years and my kids are now 11, 13.

51

First mention of the Catholic Church

by Amazing1914 in

jw
friends

as i am completing a paper for brci, i found something quite interesting.

the very first mention of the "catholic church" was made in the year 107, in st. ignatius letter to the smyrnaeans.

st. ignatius was bishop of antioch for forty-years, being appointed by the apostle peter.

lovelylil

Jim,

You are correct that nothing in the early church history is like what the Jehovah's Witnesses teach today. But my point is that this is true about most religions. Because there is very little in way of doctrine that the early christians had to believe in order to be called a Christian. Since the time the Apostles died and until today, there are so many man made doctrines that many people who once were Christians have lost their faith totally. I will say this though about the Catholic Church, when I was in it I had more freedom then as a Jehovahs Witness. But I left for very similar reasons that I left the Witnesses for. (unbiblical practices). Chrisitanity was very simple in its true day. I just wanted to make the point that no church today is like the early church in its simplicity and lack of many doctrines. Man is the one who started all that and it is very pervasive thru out all the major religions today.

You are also correct that the early church fathers had views different from the Witnesses about who Christ was. As I posted before and stated, he was not a created being. I did the research all the way back to the Arian beliefs on that one.

I just wanted to let you know, and you may not mean to sound this way, but it does seem like you favor certain groups and are trying to maybe prove that the Catholic Church teachings are closer to the early church than any other. Or, at least it seemed that way to me anyway. And you will have a hard time proving this without going by the "early church fathers". But remember they are only men, although they may have been good men. Christ's teachings found in the bible are the true basis for Christian doctrine. And you have to admit, there are many doctrines in all the churches that were not practiced by early Christians.

When I was in College, I worked on many research papers and I am still a researcher. And I learned in my journalism classes that everyone is biased when working on a research paper. You cannot totally remove all the bias because of human tendency. I know that when I did my Michael the Archangel research, I got together a team of five others to read it over with a fine tooth comb to make sure I was looking objectively at every scripture because we all have long held beliefs. I try to do this now too as I write articles for a Christian paper in India. I was wondering if you are doing that too because you mentioned the other night about having a focus group of some type? I said I did not have time to help with this but now you have peaked my interest. If you still want people for this, put me on your list. If you don't mind me asking really hard questions? I believe every arguement has at least four sides.

By the way, in college I studied to be a lawyer. Changed my mind though because I am too honest for that. Sorry if this statement offends anyone. I am thinking about going back to school to study Religion.

7

What Is the Conventions About?

by Broken Hearted in

can someone tell me what the purpose of the conventions are and what does on at them?

trying to still research this religion and understand more from the outside.

lovelylil

Usually you are "encouraged" to attend all the days of the Convention. And there is a special part in the Thursday night meeting before a convention telling everyone what it will be on, how they should be there for it all, so as not to miss all the spiritual junk, I mean food. And they tell you how to dress, act and be a good witness for the public. In other words how to fakely appear spotless to the wordly people in the hopes of bringing more into the Borg, I mean Org. I always referred to these meeting parts as the Shut up, sit down, and just swallow what we give you talks.

51

First mention of the Catholic Church

by Amazing1914 in

jw
friends

as i am completing a paper for brci, i found something quite interesting.

the very first mention of the "catholic church" was made in the year 107, in st. ignatius letter to the smyrnaeans.

st. ignatius was bishop of antioch for forty-years, being appointed by the apostle peter.

lovelylil

Jim,

I look forward to reading your paper on the Holy Spirit but I hope it is not going to be one of these "The Catholic Church is the only true church" papers. There is no true religion today. The church is the body of Christ and is bound together by Holy Spirit. Jesus did not start the Catholic religion, nor the baptist, nor the Jehovahs' Witnesses, nor any other religion. Every church in this world, while there are good people in them, have their own share of commiting atrocities against people, including the Catholic and the JWs. All of them.

I am bringing this up because I just have this feeling by the comments you leave that you only support Catholic or break away churches that teach Catholic doctrines. It does not matter what the early church fathers or bishops say, if you are a Christian and should be following Christ. Christ does not mention the Catholic church nor any others as being the true church. As a matter of fact, he told the Samaritan women at the well (See John for the best account of this) that one day all will worship God in spirit and truth and not in Jeruselem nor on the mountain where her forefathers have worshiped in the past. Becuase worship of God does not depend on where you worship him or the building. Paul expounded on this in Athens (see Acts of the Apostles) when he made this statement "God does not dwell in man made temples". None of the Apostles after Jesus started a religion either. Paul spoke against making sects by saying we are following a certain person (such as Paul or Cephas, or any others that teach us about Christ). He said Christ is divided in that way. We as Christians should only be worshiping and following Christ. And beyond some basic doctrines, he did not give many rules that people have to adher to nor say they needed to belong to a certain group. Remember that the business of starting different religions with their own creeds came AFTER the death of the Apostles. Please do some research on the origin of the word church or ecclesia and you will see it is the people, not the buildings, not the man-made doctrines that came after Christ. Anywhere that there is man who establishes a religion HE feels is true, there is injustice, false teachings, repression of fellow man, slaughters in God's name, and many other atrocities. (man dominates man to his injury, like the bible says)

Remember: Religion Divides People - The work of the Holy Spirit is to Unite us in Christ.

84

Confession me reply to your message RE Richie

by Beep,Beep in

jw
friends

i do not agree with your reading of "policy".

i base this on personal experience on a couple of fronts.

1. i have yet to come across a single verifiable of a cover up.

lovelylil

Beep Beep,

so you never heard of a cover up? And you are saying there is no two witness rule? Everyone here knows you are wrong. Who are you trying to fool?

In the HIngham MA congregation in 2003, I found out that my son who was 7 at the time was going to the bathroom unsupervised along side an elderly "brother" who was jailed many times before for raping and sodomizing young boys. I found out because a sister came to see me and begged me not to let my son out of my sight. She told me she was on the phone for over an hour argueing with an elder, the service overseer, about the fact that he should warn our family about this man. His response was this: "well, we do not know if so and so has done anything like this recently so if we tell this family and it gets around the hall, so and so may sue us for slander". WHAT? If the guy went to jail for this in the past, how can it be slander? When this sister persisted, the "elder" than said, "well we also don't want the nieghbors next to the KH to know about this or it will give Jehovah a bad name". Do you think for one minute, God would allow a child rapist to stay in the nation of Isreal, lets say? Or would that person not have been stoned to death right away? And then this "elder" told the sister that if she DARED to speak a word of it to me or my husband, SHE would be brought before a judicial committee. This child molestor pervert even spent the night at another families home with a young child, when he knew full well he was not to be around young children. If my worldly police make these people register as sex offenders to protect kids, why doesn't the society warn parents of young children in the halls. Well, we left that congregation and then went a few towns over to Holbrook, MA and were there less than a year. GUESS WHAT?....................YOU GUESS WHAT YET?.....................WE GOT ANOTHER WARNING OF A PEDOPHILE OVER THERE! LIke Danny and others have said over and over again, it is totally rampant. There is this McClean guy right now who is being looked for. The reporting to the Police is a new thing because most states now mandate it but still, you can be sure it is not done unless there are two witnesses in most congregations. Imagine that the worldly laws had to get involved because Gods own organization does not know how to do the right thing? You are not fooling anyone by saying its not true. We have all been there and have no reason to lie.