Posts by lovelylil

86

The Earliest Trinity Statements

by Amazing1914 in

jw
friends

[note: i am not promoting a religion, a church system, nor a set of beliefs.

i am merely reporting history as i find it.

the early, ante-nicene church fathers spent much time fighting heresies.

lovelylil

Jim,

I am glad you feel you are the final authority on the subject and can close the case when you are done, but I don't think that is fair just because I am asking questions. Keep reading verses 4-9, it shows that the work they (Paul and Barnabas) were called to do was proclaiming the truth about God and that HE (God) filled them with the Holy Spirit. Because in verse 9 it says Paul spoke while filled with Holy Spirit. Why does it state here Paul was filled with Holy Spirit as opposed to the Holy Spirit spoke? Because it is the same thing that is why. When people say the Holy Spirit speaks to them, they are not hearing spirits. But rather they feel God's influence moving them to speak in a certain way.

I was simply saying you cannot use only one obscure verse to prove a point. The Holy Spirit is not a new teaching only in the NT. The Holy Spirit of God has been around in the OT also. Many Christians experience the indwelling of the Holy Spirt, including myself. I understand exactly what it means to have the Holy Spirit speak to you. Has anyone else out there reading this have this experience?

I don't except the NWT as a good translation of scripture. It is a very biased version made specifically to square up with the WT teachings. I have at least 10 translations in my home. Many of these agree with my interpretation of that verse in Acts 13. I also have several Bible Commentary books which agrees with my intepretation.

I think you are a very intelligent guy but please don't get frustrated just because you cannot prove your view to someone. I am not upset with you at all. As a future lawyer, you will be asked to prove much more serious things than this issue. Anyway, have a good night. I am turning in too. If you want, we can continue with this, if not then thats o.k. too. We agree with a lot of other things.

15

My son made me proud the other day.

by lowden in

jw
friends

my eldest son (19 in oct') went for coffee he other day with a former associate of his who is still a jw.

the conversation eventually came around to spiritual things and his friend, matt, started firing the questions.

how he felt about the faith, would he go back, did he still believe?.....

lovelylil

poodlehead,

I agree with your post and just want to add this one thing, that God wants us to want to obey him willingly. He gave Adam and Eve the choice.

He did not create them as robots but endowed them with free will. Just like a parent does not want their children to obey out of FEAR but rather

love and respect. It is the same with God. But there are other things involved also. Before I get into trouble, please read my disclaimer.

DISCLAIMER: The information above is meant for only those who still believe in a God. For those who do not, please disregard. Because If I have to debate that issue again, I will literally THROW UP. Thank You.

31

Is revenge sweet?

by lovelylil in

jw
friends

a friend of mine recently told me that she had committed this "act of revenge" on an elders wife once.

i know the elders wife too and she is such a snoody-nose in the air, my family is better than yours person.

both her boys grew up witnesses and are in the org.

lovelylil

I will let my friend know that it is mail fraud. But I wonder how they would catch someone at that? It seems to be untraceable?

86

The Earliest Trinity Statements

by Amazing1914 in

jw
friends

[note: i am not promoting a religion, a church system, nor a set of beliefs.

i am merely reporting history as i find it.

the early, ante-nicene church fathers spent much time fighting heresies.

lovelylil

Jim,

Thanks for the update. This one scripture cannot prove that the Holy Spirit is actually speaking. Because the Holy Spirit is what causes some to prophesy and understand the will of God. Some will say "the Spirit says" but mean the Spirit moves them to believe in something.

In the beginning of this chapter 13 of Acts we see there are many gathered together in prayer including Prophets and teachers. While they were praying the Holy Spirit said "set apart Barnabas and Saul" for a certain work. This is not conclusive proof because this information could have come from one of the Prophets, not necessarily from the mouth of the Holy Spirit.

Whenever anyone in the OT was filled with Holy Spirit, what they prophesied was not attributed to anyone but God. And certainly no a person called the Holy Spirit. We must take ALL the Bible in its entirety to understand some verses. It simply would not make sense to change here in this one verse and say, the Holy Spirit Himself is speaking. The Holy Spirit is the same in the OT as the NT. In one of my Bibles, the NIV, the writers seem to agree with my view. Here is the footnote regarding this scripture:

It reads regarding this verse: "this communication from the Holy Spirit may have come through the Prophets". Meaning the Prophets present during this prayer session. So they are saying basically Holy Spirit of God revealed to them what God had planned for these two men. This is in line with the Bible totally.

Have you ever felt Holy Spirit on you? I have many times and I have felt this "influence" direct me towards a scripture or thought needed in a certain moment. My whole ministry work I am in now is guided strictly by the Holy Spirit. I pray for God's guidance and go wherever I feel the Spirit move me. This is hard to explain to those who may not have felt this but I know from Personal experience what the Holy Spirit is.

Have any other scriptures?

86

The Earliest Trinity Statements

by Amazing1914 in

jw
friends

[note: i am not promoting a religion, a church system, nor a set of beliefs.

i am merely reporting history as i find it.

the early, ante-nicene church fathers spent much time fighting heresies.

lovelylil

Jim,

I was quite interested in that verse in Acts where you say the Holy Spirit himself speaks, as I have read the bible many times through and never saw it. When I looked it up in several bible translations, this is what I found:

Acts 21:10,11 New International Version

10 After we had been there a number of days, a prophet named Agabus came down from Judea

11 Coming over to us, he took Paul's belt, tied his own hands and feet with it and said, "The Holy Spirit says, 'In this way the Jews of Jerusalem will bind the owner of this belt and will hand him over to the Gentiles.

(NASB)

10 As we were staying there for some days, a prophet named Agabus came down from Judea.

11 And coming to us, he took Paul's belt and bound his own feet and hands, and said, "This is what the Holy Spirit says: 'In this way the Jews at Jerusalem will bind the man who owns this belt and deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles.'"

(KING JAMES VERSION)

10 And as we tarried there many days, there came down from Judaea a certain prophet, named Agabus.

11 And when he was come unto us, he took Paul's girdle, and bound his own hands and feet, and said, Thus saith the Holy Ghost, So shall the Jews at Jerusalem bind the man that owneth this girdle, and shall deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles.

These are just a few bibles that clearly show that the prophet Agabus is the one who held onto Pauls girdle and spoke saying "the Holy Spirit says", it is not the Holy Spirit himself speaking. All of Gods prophets are filled with Holy Spirit, and this is why he could say "the Holy Spirit" says. Another way to say this is "the Holy Spirit moves me to say", Remember men were "borne along by Holy Spirit" when they wrote the Bible? What translation are you using that you think this verse says it is the person of the Holy Spirit speaking?

You gave some information about the Spirit being spoken of in the first person, Jim I think you have to put down the books you use for your information and pick up the bible itself. Can you show me any scriptural proof that the trinity doctrine is not just man trying to explain the nature of God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit? I don't think so. Do you have another scripture that you think is conclusive proof of the Holy Spirit doing anything on its own? If so I would love to see it. Thanks Lilly

9

WARNING: Is this life all there is? JW's etal believe what you are told...

by sinis in

after much thought and research, i with heavy heart, must say yes.

i know there is a creator or supreme being of somekind.

the chances of life just happening flies in the face of all mathmatical probability models.

lovelylil

Sinis,

This has been spoken about a lot on this forum. And it only ends with an arguement about whether or not there is a creator.

So, I will only give a brief statement: God has a plan to bring everything lost in Adam back thru Christ. He is reconcilling everything back to himself. There are many scriptures that show his plan. And it does not include destroying millions of people either. This is the true gospel of Christ. If you would like, you can email me at [email protected], and I will give you a link where you can read an article about this. Or, I can email it to you. You can then look up the bible verses and read them in their complete context and if you have questions, just email me anytime. I would be happy to help. I just choose not to answer this question in this forum again which will just open up another arguement. If you are still open to the idea of God and the Bible, I will happily help you. Peace be with you, Lilly

34

Ongoing Saga; Privacy Commission, WTS and my attempt to get personal files

by jwfacts in

i posted a while ago that i had asked the aust bethel for my personal records under the privacy act 1988. bethel refused.

i then lodged a complaint with the privacy commission.

bethel signed a stat dec that they are not covered by the privacy act, and so the case was closed.

lovelylil

your post was very interesting because I always wondered about the records kept on me and my kids in particular. They were unbaptized publishers when we left. I will be interested in knowing how your case turns out and if they rule in your favor, can you copy the decision somehow and post on this site. Because I will use it when writing to ask for my records. Anyway, good luck.

37

Congratulations (belated) to Randy Watters on reaching 2 million!

by Deleted in

jw
friends

when i was in nyc in spiring of 1999 (there on biz) i asked a bethelite friend who was the biggest pain to the wts and he said randy watters and his bethel ministries.

i flew home to oregon and i read everything on randy at www.freeminds.org (watchers of the watchtower world).

truly a life saver for me and my family!

lovelylil

I feel the same Randy. I owe you a lot and God bless you! You are always in my thoughts and prayers. I talk about your site so much and the things I have learned, as well as you, that my husband is a little jealous. LOL

45

I think my parents arent talking to me for good this time

by Es in

jw
friends

hey all,.

most of you know the story, havnt spoken to my folks for nearly 8 months after another argument as to why they could not been seen in public with my fiance (now hubby) and i as it would be seen agreeing with my decision to marry a "worldly" man.. i kind of got the hint it was for good when i didnt get an invite to the memorial, even if we are not talking at the time my dad always sends a written invite.. my nan has been really sick so she has been staying at my mums so i decided to text my mum yesterday to see how she is going.

bout 6:30 my mob rings and its my mum i was shocked but also excited to hear her voice....but instead it was my nan.

lovelylil

So sorry about that es. I know how you feel because when I became a Witness, most of my Roman Catholic Family stopped speaking to me for a long time including my parents. One thing that helped me to get thru the pain of it, was to keep a journal and write down my feelings daily about it. Hopefully one day they will come around and realize that it is just not right to ignore your own flesh and blood. It is truly a tragic situation. So sorry.

86

The Earliest Trinity Statements

by Amazing1914 in

jw
friends

[note: i am not promoting a religion, a church system, nor a set of beliefs.

i am merely reporting history as i find it.

the early, ante-nicene church fathers spent much time fighting heresies.

lovelylil

Excellent Post.

I also feel the Trinity is NOT a person. I just cannot wrap my brain around this because the Holy Spirit is always something that is sent out by our Heavenly Father. Also, I have the Didache and other early writings and NONE of these say the Holy Spirit is a person. In the NT anytime you sin against the Holy Spirit, you are sinning against God. No the Holy Spirit is not electricity like the WT teaches either. It does exert power over all believers. True Believers are said to be filled with the Holy Spirit. How can this be a person?

As far as Jesus, I believe that we will never fully understand Christ's relationship with God. Only he truly knows the father. I am not against saying he is divine like God. I think the early Christians and Pharisees knew as God's son he was equal to God "IN NATURE", not in position. But I can nowhere see any such teaching as the Holy Spirit being a person in the same sense of God and Christ. This is not saying he is in POSITION, equal to the father.

I stand by my original posts the the Holy Spirit is "personified" but does not mean it is a person. And PLEASE do not tell me I am still indoctrinated by the WT. I believed this to be true when I was 12 and still in the Roman Catholic Church. This is a main reason for my leaving. I could not accept the Holy Spirit as a person. If we accept that simply because the Holy Spirit is a "he", we must then accept that all Gods qualities that are spoken of as he, she, him, must be people too. This would include wisdom, justice, prudence, and other qualities.

I don't mind reading the early church fathers but I must weigh it according to the scriptures themselves. If anyone thinks they could show me otherwise where I am wrong in the scriptures, please show me. I am open to reading anything and at least listening to the other persons views.