under_believer

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Posts by under_believer

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  44

  Did You Ever "Report" Someone (Or Yourself) To The Elders???

  by minimus in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  ever snitch on anyone??

  ?

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  under_believer

  Myself. At a certain point I did some inadvisable things with a girl I knew (though nothing that qualified as "porneia"). I truly believed I had to go to the elders to have a "good relationship with Jehovah" and to have a "clear conscience." I ended up getting reproved.
  
  Unfortunately the elders on my case severely mishandled it--there were two different judicial committees (one for me and one for the girl) and we got different punishments and different judgments. They wouldn't meet with me for weeks, keeping me on pins and needles the whole time, and I had to finally complain bitterly to even get them to take the time to tell me my punishment. Also many people questioned the judgment since no sex of any kind took place.
  
  Later I tried to talk to one of the elders on my committee about it. "Hey Brother Elder? I wanted to talk to you about what happened. Now, I'm not questioning the decision or..." He interrupted: "I could care less if you agree with the decision." I said, "Umm... listen, I just had a question about how it qualified as..." Him: "It sounds like you don't agree with the decision after all." At that point I just walked off. This elder has since inherited millions of dollars and is one of the richest people in the circuit. He's an arrogant asshole.
  
  It became widely known in our circuit as an example of bungling judicial committees. Yay for being the poster boy.
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  46

  A story that is hard for me to tell

  by under_believer in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  once upon a time there was a daddy who really, really liked alcohol.

  he drank too much all the time and smelled like wine, cheap wine from a box.

  ) the daddy's boys also grew up.

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  under_believer

  One of the worst things about this whole mess is the way that we don't talk about it. The only person I can talk freely about it with is my sister (who was also a victim.) My mom knows that I know, but we have never even broached the subject.
  
  From what I can tell from talking to my sister (who CAN talk more freely to my mom about it), my mother has essentially said "they have made some mistakes but it's all good because they taught me about Jehovah." And indeed, here in an excerpt from a recent email I got from my mother:
  
  ***************
  There is something I've been wanting to tell you, , and I hope you won't take offense at it. Its just that you seem to feel you had such a terrible childhood, and I know things were far from ideal. But, do you ever think about the positive aspects of your childhood? I could tell you stories about my childhood that would make yours seem quite wonderful. Still I appreciate the good things that happened to me as a childhood, and appreciate my parents for the love they showed me, even if they were far from perfect (especially my father, as you probably know). But, what I especially appreciate about my childhood, is that I was introduced to our wonderful God, Jehovah at a young age and was able to enjoy so many beautiful experiences in serving Him even at a very young age.
  ***************
  
  In talking to my therapist, I've discovered that the attitude above is typical among victims of sexual abuse. This is only exacerbated by the religion issue.
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  46

  A story that is hard for me to tell

  by under_believer in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  once upon a time there was a daddy who really, really liked alcohol.

  he drank too much all the time and smelled like wine, cheap wine from a box.

  ) the daddy's boys also grew up.

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  under_believer

  Thank you, all, for your support and kindness. It means more than you can know. I don't have the words to express my gratitude--not for anything you can say (though that's appreciated too) but for simply reading it and tucking it away to tell others.
  
  At this point I am quite astonished that I wrote and posted it. Every word of it is true; including the parts that expose the sides of my personality that I'm ashamed of--like being retroactively happy that my grandfather suffered in his death. It is true that he caused extreme pain, directly or indirectly, to three generations of descendants; but if you saw the way he died you might feel that he paid his debts. No court of law in the world would sentence someone to die that way.
  
  I had planned to tell the story in an vague, truncated way, but it all came spilling out in a cathartic rush of feeling. I'm shivering now and I wonder if I'll come to regret posting it. I guess if one person can benefit from reading the story, and get out of the org, or pay closer attention to their kids, or think about their own childhoods, it will be worth it.
  
  Someday, hopefully with her permission, I will tell my wife's family story. Some would argue that it is just as bad.
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  46

  A story that is hard for me to tell

  by under_believer in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  once upon a time there was a daddy who really, really liked alcohol.

  he drank too much all the time and smelled like wine, cheap wine from a box.

  ) the daddy's boys also grew up.

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  under_believer

  Once upon a time there was a daddy who really, really liked alcohol. He drank too much all the time and smelled like wine, cheap wine from a box. He had four children, but he especially loved his two daughters, maybe a little bit too much. He would drink too much, and then touch them in places that were inappropriate. He did other things to them, too, things that I can't really repeat because they will make me want to dig up his dead, worthless carcass and poop on it. Also, I might get banned. The mommy of this family knew about the daddy's habits, but didn't do anything about it for reasons that are a mystery to everyone.
  
  This daddy was shiftless and could not hold a job. He hated working for other people, so he bounced from position to position, from lousy job to lousy job, from failed business idea to failed business idea. Later this daddy and mommy's kids helped to support them. So did the taxpayers of the state they lived in.
  
  Though this daddy was unimportant in real life, in his religion he was important. When they announced the "elder arrangement" and the position of Presiding Overseer, he was the first elder to step up to the plate, and then he held that position for years. Many years. Many, many years.
  
  The daddy's girls grew up. Forever damaged, they made poor choices. One got married very early (at 16.) Another got married a bit later (at 20.) The daddy's boys also grew up. One boy decided he didn't believe in a religion where a daddy who did such terrible things to his precious girls was allowed to be in charge of a whole congregation, and where he was required to believe that the Holy Spirit approved of a daddy like that! This boy isn't spoken of. In fact for many years the other children's children didn't even know he existed. Another of the boys was cut from the same cloth as his father, at least in the "shiftless loser" department.
  
  So, all of the daddy's kids had children, daughters and sons. Now the daddy was a grandpa! Everyone was very happy about this. But the grandpa's girls were confused and didn't know or understand what abuse really was, and they sent their daughters up to the grandpa's house. The grandpa drank a lot of alcohol, and he took his precious, five- and six- and seven-year-old granddaughters behind the woodshed, or into the bathroom, and he touched them where he shouldn't and did other things that make me wish that I believed in hell, in fact specifically in Dante's version of it. The grandpa was still a Presiding Overseer in his religion, and everyone (except the bad, bad, unspoken-of boy) was still required to believe that Jehovah's Holy Spirit had chosen him to lead his congregation.
  
  Eventually this grandpa's grandkids also grew up and had kids. The grandpa was now a great grandpa. However, his grandchildren learned about abuse and didn't make the same mistake their mommies and daddies did.
  
  I'm happy to report that the grandpa contracted aggressive prostate cancer that, before it killed him in writhing, blind, gibbering agony, necessitated the removal of the part of his anatomy that caused so many problems in the first place. The way that the grandpa died seemed very horrible to little under_believer at the time, but that was before little under_believer learned what a piece of fecal matter his grandpa was, and what his grandpa did to his dear precious sister and his loving mommy. Now under_believer wonders if the way his grandpa died is somehow proof of the existence of God, or at least of karmic justice.
  
  The daddy's descendants are a sad lot. The two boys are now both ex-Witnesses. One can hold a job; the other is as much of a perennial welfare case as his daddy was. One of the girls is alcoholic, but still nominally a Witness. She is in a frigid, loveless marriage and wishes with all her heart that her husband was dead. Her daughters, also victims of their grandpa, are unable to care for their children as full time parents (though they try very hard) and their mommy does much of the day-to-day child care.
  
  The daddy's other daughter, my mother, is utterly and completely devoted to Jehovah. She has no friends, even among Witnesses, though she has a caring nature and gives of herself for others to a fault. She will do anybody any favor they ask. As a result she is often taken advantage of in time and money, and also much loved (but not befriended.) She is married to a man (my father) who is emotionally distant and never tells her he loves her. Her husband spanked her children too hard. But she didn't stop him.
  
  Now both of her children are leaving Jehovah and will be destroyed at Armageddon. This is the final tragedy in a loveless, sad, tragic life filled with pain and misery--her children will not be with her in paradise, and her God and Father is the one that will do the killing.
  
  But that is a pattern she's familiar with, and maybe that offers some small comfort.
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  42

  Hypnotic method of WTS

  by OnTheWayOut in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i was reading various materials from the web and came across information that suggests that j.f.rutherford .

  learned to use hypnotic study methods.

  study books for students engage the left brain and right brain, .

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  under_believer

  > I think you either believe that they could have influence or you don`t. I choose to.
  
  That's fine, but you see what I'm saying? You are believing something that you can't prove. If someone asks you why you believe it, you won't be able to tell them. Are you comfortable with that? Other than being disfellowshipped, why did you leave the Society? Wasn't it because you were being asked to believe something that wasn't proveable?
  
  > how can you prove something like that
  
  Well actually, it wouldn't be too hard. If you'd read the link I provided, you'd see that experiments have been run in the past (and failed, incidentally.) One method that instantly comes to mind would be to insert subliminal advertising for various products into movies, and then track over a long period of time (say, a year) whether or not sales of the advertised items went up from where they were before.
  
  > I think you put up to hard a barrier to accept or believe something.
  
  Proof? Evidence? Yes, I guess those are hard barriers, depending on what I'm being asked to believe. I don't have any choice, though. This is the attitude that saved me from the Society. I asked for proof, and they didn't have any.
  
  I think everyone should ask for proof before believing things, but maybe that would mean abandoning or holding in doubt too many things they're sure of, or perhaps it's too much work, or maybe it's too scary.
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  93

  Wikipedia being abused by Jehovahs Witnesses

  by Simon in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  i had a look at the wikipedia entry for jehovahs witnesses yesterday and noticed that it wasn't as comprehensive as it once was.. most links to non-pro-jw sites have gone as is anything truly critical or exposing of their beliefs and practices.. last night i added a link to this site to the "other sources" section.

  this morning it is gone.. i wonder whether this is some private zealot who has decided to do it or an organised campaign?.

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/jehovah%27s_witnesses.

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  under_believer

  God, truth.ceeker, you are certainly giving everyone an object lesson on why Wikipedia is such an assy place.
  
  Listen, there are community standards and acceptable content for Wikipedia. You are violating them. For proof of this, I have only to state (correctly) that there are exactly zero other long-standing Wikipedia pages that follow the format and substance of what yours does. Find me another "these are some random quotes from someone" page that has standing and reputation (i.e. has existed for a reasonable period of time and isn't embroiled with controversy), and I will back down on this.
  
  The dishonest way you introduced your "article" to the group lends credence to the idea that it was off base. Why not just say that you wrote it? Why act like it was something you stumbled upon?
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  42

  Hypnotic method of WTS

  by OnTheWayOut in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i was reading various materials from the web and came across information that suggests that j.f.rutherford .

  learned to use hypnotic study methods.

  study books for students engage the left brain and right brain, .

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
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  under_believer

  In any case, I don't question the EXISTENCE of subliminals, because we can find examples with artists who are willing to own up to it. What I'm questioning is the EFFECT that subliminals have (remember that kid that sued Black Sabbath after he shot himself in the head with a shotgun?--the case was thrown out) and the FREQUENCY of subliminals, i.e. are they lurking behind every Victoria's Secret ad?
  
  I say that there is no evidence that subliminal advertising works (if I'm wrong, then please produce some), that subliminal advertising is very rare and usually not expected by its producers to have any actual effect (if I'm wrong, please produce evidence to the contrary.)
  
  So even if the Society has "acknowledged" the sinister influence of the Beatles, that still doesn't convince me. They also "acknowledge" all their other crazy teachings.
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  30

  Unusual preaching method I spotted today..

  by ackack in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  while waiting for a streetcar today, i noticed an unusal flier stuck to the side of a newspaper box.

  why has love of neighbour grown cold?many people feel miserable with no solution.

  in israel, jews and arabs live together, but often hate one another.

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  under_believer

  > This message was printed for the information of the public and is not sponsored by any organization
  
  BS. The Witness "preaching work" is de facto sponsored by the Watchtower Society.
  
  And yeah awesome about the fake "worldly person."
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  42

  Hypnotic method of WTS

  by OnTheWayOut in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i was reading various materials from the web and came across information that suggests that j.f.rutherford .

  learned to use hypnotic study methods.

  study books for students engage the left brain and right brain, .

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
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  under_believer

  OTWO, my "stupid Witnesses" post clearly states that the cause is either lack of intelligence (not the same as being hypnotized) or a deliberate effort to conceal the fact that they don't believe it (also not the same as hypnosis.) As an aside, I'd also like to say that I regret saying that there are so many stupid Witnesses. There's a difference between stupidity and naiveté and I was wrong to say that.
  
  And dido: I'm not trying to bully you, but I am arguing with you. You chose to insert yourself into this discussion, and if you're going to take offense at "spirited debate," you should think twice before doing so. I hope nothing I said has been taken personally, it certainly wasn't intended that way. Incidentally, where has the "wtbs acknowledged subliminal imaging?"
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  42

  Hypnotic method of WTS

  by OnTheWayOut in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i was reading various materials from the web and came across information that suggests that j.f.rutherford .

  learned to use hypnotic study methods.

  study books for students engage the left brain and right brain, .

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
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  under_believer

  > I am in the camp that they DO HAVE SOME EFFECT.
  
  Then you are also in the camp that BELIEVES THINGS WITHOUT ANY PROOF. Next it's going to be UFOs, autism-vaccination links, and Illuminati.