Zico, no, it does not. I suspect that if Solomon really wrote it (a question that is open to debate, considering Proverbs' pedigree) that it was written as a piece of general advice entreating wisdom, and then showing the positive result of wisdom. It is sitting there among hundreds of other verses of general wisdom and is the only one that speaks in the first person. I doubt it was speaking specifically to any of Solomon's actual sons, nor that it was referring to any specific taunter or event.
greendawn, they DON'T try to justify it. The Society uses this scripture in two ways: in many instances they say that it is God speaking directly to us (example: w53 p102), and in other instances they say that it is Jehovah speaking to Jesus (example: w53 p268). In all cases, though, there is no explanation for why they think it is Jehovah speaking, or why they believe that it is us (or Jesus) that he is speaking to. It appears that because it seems to fit with their way of thinking (i.e. Satan is taunting Jehovah, there's a cosmic court case going on, etc) they simply assume that the scripture has greater import than its context would indicate. It is NEVER considered in context in any of the citations of it that I can find. Here's a good example of their level of analysis of this verse (notice that everything is just pat and assumed, they don't try to defend their application nor discuss the context):
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*** w71 9/1 p. 534 par. 14 Joyous Results of Maintained Integrity ***
But an even greater reason for our being joyful is spoken of in Proverbs 27:11. Let us read and analyze this verse together: ?Be wise, my son, and make my heart rejoice, that I may make a reply to him that is taunting me.? Jehovah is telling us to be wise. How can we be wise? How can we show wisdom? By taking in knowledge from the Bible and then by applying that knowledge in our lives. In other words, by keeping integrity to Bible principles. If we are wise in this way, what does it do? It makes God?s heart rejoice. Why? Because we can serve as an answer to ?him that is taunting God,? that is, Satan the Devil. Yes, Jehovah can point to integrity-keepers to prove Satan?s challenge that he could turn all men away from God is false, just as Jehovah did in the case of Job.
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under_believer
JoinedPosts by under_believer
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117
"That I may make a reply to him that is taunting me"
by under_believer inso for our "congregation book study", we are still deeply mired in the bible teach book.
this week's lesson talks about the whole idea that the book of job relates the central issue of the entire cosmos, a vital issue raised by satan, where satan questions whether humans follow god because of what they are given, or because he deserves it.
i'm surprised that the book of job, obviously archetypal and figurative (for example, i doubt people back then literally spoke for hours in hebrew verse, and i doubt that four messengers showed up all in a row with stories telling that they, only they, got away to tell of a disaster) even has a place in the canon; aside from its lack of any specific historical position or accuracy, the argument it advances (especially as the society interprets it) is facile: the idea that privileged, wealthy, powerful job somehow stands as a representative for all humanity and serves as a litmus test for man's interaction with god is downright silly.
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under_believer
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"That I may make a reply to him that is taunting me"
by under_believer inso for our "congregation book study", we are still deeply mired in the bible teach book.
this week's lesson talks about the whole idea that the book of job relates the central issue of the entire cosmos, a vital issue raised by satan, where satan questions whether humans follow god because of what they are given, or because he deserves it.
i'm surprised that the book of job, obviously archetypal and figurative (for example, i doubt people back then literally spoke for hours in hebrew verse, and i doubt that four messengers showed up all in a row with stories telling that they, only they, got away to tell of a disaster) even has a place in the canon; aside from its lack of any specific historical position or accuracy, the argument it advances (especially as the society interprets it) is facile: the idea that privileged, wealthy, powerful job somehow stands as a representative for all humanity and serves as a litmus test for man's interaction with god is downright silly.
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under_believer
So for our "congregation book study", we are still deeply mired in the Bible Teach book. This week's lesson talks about the whole idea that the book of Job relates the central issue of the entire cosmos, a vital issue raised by Satan, where Satan questions whether humans follow God because of what they are given, or because he deserves it.
I'm surprised that the book of Job, obviously archetypal and figurative (for example, I doubt people back then literally spoke for hours in Hebrew verse, and I doubt that four messengers showed up all in a row with stories telling that they, only they, got away to tell of a disaster) even has a place in the canon; aside from its lack of any specific historical position or accuracy, the argument it advances (especially as the Society interprets it) is facile: The idea that privileged, wealthy, powerful Job somehow stands as a representative for all humanity and serves as a litmus test for Man's interaction with God is downright silly. No test was needed; no real challenge was raised. Many poor, hungry, disadvantaged, sick, dying masses of people have served God throughout history, with no expectation of present material benefits. It was a non-issue; if anything, the only issue that was raised was whether Job himself served God because of material blessings.
But what really blew me away about the lesson is what I perceive to be a misapplication of Proverbs 27:11, translated in the NWT as "Be wise, my son, and make my heart rejoice, that I may make a reply to him that is taunting me." The Bible Teach book states that God is the one speaking in this verse, talking to all of his servants everywhere then and for all times in the future. They say that "the one that is taunting him" is Satan, and that we have to stay free from worldly, Satanic influence and faithful to God so that God may make a reply Satan. They say that since this verse was (ostensibly) written hundreds of years after the events of Job took place, it meant that Satan was still taunting God and that Job's faithfulness didn't settle the issue.
But Proverbs 27:11 is situated squarely in a series of chapters of Proverbs that the Bible attributes to Solomon, starting with the statement "These also are the proverbs of Solomon that the men of Hezekiah the king of Judah transcribed". They are solidly in the "general wisdom" category--advice for life, pithy sayings, and stress on obedience to the King (one wonders of the admitted origin of these verses--transcription by the men of Hezekiah the king--could have contributed to some of these sentiments). It most certainly does NOT claim to be prophetic or "typical" (in the Society's sense of the word) in any way. There is no indication that God is speaking here, or that the "me" of Prov 27:11 is God--rather, the context itself indicates that it was Solomon at best, and some random scribe seeking to solidify Hezekiah's political power base at worst.
This makes the whole argument a house of cards--we aren't involved in some huge cosmic "court case" that is being decided by our actions and service to God. Common sense dictates this--why would the Creator of the entire Universe need to make a reply to one of his creations, anyways? But maybe seeing how the Society misuses one of their primary proof texts for this concept will help people to break free from this silly misunderstanding of Scripture. -
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Letter from a family member: is there even a point?
by under_believer ini have been corresponding with a certain family member of mine on the problems i have with the society and the witnesses.
we've been mostly outlining the parameters such a discussion would take (a sort of meta-discussion) rather than having the discussion itself.
i received this lovely gem from this family member today: .
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under_believer
jgnat, that is an excellent idea.
GG/BG, I like your new avatar! And thanks very much for the perspective of one who was saved from the Society. There is at least reason for hope. -
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Comparing the Watchtower to a government ... your thoughts
by The wanderer inuntitled document <!-- .style1 {font-family: verdana} .style2 {font-family: verdana; font-style: italic; } --> comparing the watchtower to a government during the time in which i spent as one of jehovah's witnesses.
the watchtower society would often compare itself to a theocracy.. however, over the course of time that was not my perception con-.
cerning the watchtower.. what kind of government would you compare it to?does the society represent a "theocracy" as they so often claim?.
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under_believer
Let's not get confused, here. All self-professed "theocracies" that currently exist in our modern world are also dictatorships. Necessarily dictatorships, I'd say. Remember a true theocracy would have to actually be governed by God, and I doubt anyone here is willing to claim that any nation currently existing qualifies. Therefore, fullofdoubtnow, saying "no Witnesses are not a theocracy, they're a dictatorship" is kind of like saying that Simba isn't a lion, he's a feline. Secondly, Justice-One, I'm hard-pressed to see how the Witnesses resemble communism--perhaps my definition of that word differs from the one you're using?
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Jesus Camp, the movie. Trailer freaked me out.
by kwintestal insorry if this has already been discussed, but i haven't been around too much.
anyway, i heard an interview with the directors of the film the other day, and was compelled to check out the website.
it's a movie about x-tian kids going to these bible camps and i'll tell you, the trailer (in the download section) freaked me right out.
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under_believer
skyking, good point.
Extremism in every form is an evil.
This shows that the Christians have their evil loonies just like the Muslims. -
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Letter from a family member: is there even a point?
by under_believer ini have been corresponding with a certain family member of mine on the problems i have with the society and the witnesses.
we've been mostly outlining the parameters such a discussion would take (a sort of meta-discussion) rather than having the discussion itself.
i received this lovely gem from this family member today: .
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under_believer
I'm going to try the "soft touch" approach. I will try and plant seeds, but avoid anything that could be characterized as an attack. There was a recent elder injustice done to this person's immediate family, so I may be able to gently exploit that.
At the end of the day I just don't think I could live with myself if I didn't do SOMETHING.
Thank you all for your feedback, it was very helpful. -
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Jesus Camp, the movie. Trailer freaked me out.
by kwintestal insorry if this has already been discussed, but i haven't been around too much.
anyway, i heard an interview with the directors of the film the other day, and was compelled to check out the website.
it's a movie about x-tian kids going to these bible camps and i'll tell you, the trailer (in the download section) freaked me right out.
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under_believer
I literally felt the hair on the back of my neck standing up. That trailer exudes evil from every pore.
If extremists (whether Christian or Muslim) are going to be running the world in 20 years, we better start investing in the space program. -
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Mystery Object in Space - wild speculation invited ?
by Crumpet inso what do you reckon it is?
how small/big must an object be before it gets noticed by an astronaut?
http://www.spaceflightnow.com/shuttle/sts115/060919mysteryobject/.
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under_believer
The toilets on the Shuttle must vent to space.
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Letter from a family member: is there even a point?
by under_believer ini have been corresponding with a certain family member of mine on the problems i have with the society and the witnesses.
we've been mostly outlining the parameters such a discussion would take (a sort of meta-discussion) rather than having the discussion itself.
i received this lovely gem from this family member today: .
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under_believer
Thanks all for your replies. I have much to think about, and no easy answers; but that's life, isn't it?
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Comparing the Watchtower to a government ... your thoughts
by The wanderer inuntitled document <!-- .style1 {font-family: verdana} .style2 {font-family: verdana; font-style: italic; } --> comparing the watchtower to a government during the time in which i spent as one of jehovah's witnesses.
the watchtower society would often compare itself to a theocracy.. however, over the course of time that was not my perception con-.
cerning the watchtower.. what kind of government would you compare it to?does the society represent a "theocracy" as they so often claim?.
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under_believer
They definitely qualify as a theocracy, inasmuch as people are willing to submit to their rule and on the subjects they see fit to govern. See the definition at this Wikipedia article. Comparing them to other theocracies, I have to agree that they behave much like them. Iran, for example, with its rulership of hardline clerics. Theocracies ARE dictatorships, effectively, is what I'm trying to get at.