Saying "Those in the heaven are higher in intelligence so Jah had to hide the meaning of all scriptures until Jesus Christ reveals them to us all" is crazy--it's pure conjecture. No Scripture supports the claim that there was some kind of vast cosmic conspiracy to keep all the demons in the dark. The ethical implications of such a situation alone are enough to disqualify it.
As far as the "all scripture inspired" thing, remember that none of the gospels, or Acts, or Revelation had been written yet at that time. The Way was spread orally at that time. Paul was clearly referring to what we now know as the Old Testament. Paul didn't know he was writing scripture, either.
If you want to take the viewpoint that Paul was referring to all existing Scripture and everything that would later come to be regarded as Scripture, I want to ask you which Bible he was referring to. The Catholic Bible, with Maccabees in it? The Protestant Bible you probably cut your teeth on? What about the Eastern Orthodox Bible? All of these Bibles include different books. Or did he mean everything everyone would ever claim to be Scripture, like the Qur'an, the Book of Mormon, etc...?
I'd also be careful speaking about what Jehovah applauds, unless you can back up the claim that he's speaking directly to you.
under_believer
JoinedPosts by under_believer
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117
"That I may make a reply to him that is taunting me"
by under_believer inso for our "congregation book study", we are still deeply mired in the bible teach book.
this week's lesson talks about the whole idea that the book of job relates the central issue of the entire cosmos, a vital issue raised by satan, where satan questions whether humans follow god because of what they are given, or because he deserves it.
i'm surprised that the book of job, obviously archetypal and figurative (for example, i doubt people back then literally spoke for hours in hebrew verse, and i doubt that four messengers showed up all in a row with stories telling that they, only they, got away to tell of a disaster) even has a place in the canon; aside from its lack of any specific historical position or accuracy, the argument it advances (especially as the society interprets it) is facile: the idea that privileged, wealthy, powerful job somehow stands as a representative for all humanity and serves as a litmus test for man's interaction with god is downright silly.
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under_believer
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356
Say You're a Bethelite & Monitoring JWD - How Would You Feel About THESE??
by Seeker4 ini'm talking about the new posters, like kitten whiskers, who started posting today (hope this works: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/120817/1.ashx).
and it seems like we're getting a few like this nearly every day.
people who were raised jws, really worry that they are doing the right thing in leaving, yet who have been made to feel not good enough by the wts, who felt they never measured up, who struggled with it, but came to realize that what they'd been brought up to believe was just not the truth.. the same stories are told over and over again, and they come from sincere, good people - not whiny, fault-finding apostates like the rest of us riffraff around here!
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under_believer
AuldSoul, one could argue that the entire system of cleanliness, sacrifice, and festivals was something that was managed and administered in an organized way, regardless of who God was actually directly communicating with. The priests were required for this--the system wouldn't have worked on a "peer to peer" basis.
Priests inspected animals intended for, and then performed, the sacrifice. They maintained the temple and its grounds. They were consulted on legal issues and interpretation of Law. They even had a tax of sorts, in that they were allowed (and apparently even required) to skim off the top of the animal sacrifices coming in. They organized and officiated at the festivals and they did inspections of houses and people for leprosy. Their order was started, with Aaron, by God himself.
I'd love to find Biblical proof that if all of the Levites (except the High Priest) just hung it up one night and cut their hair and stopped serving, the whole system would have still worked and the other tribes could have remained in compliance with the Law, but it doesn't seem that way to me.
If you have a way of explaining this I'd love to hear it--I've been caught up on this very issue when trying to tell Witnesses that Jehovah never dealt with an organization. -
117
"That I may make a reply to him that is taunting me"
by under_believer inso for our "congregation book study", we are still deeply mired in the bible teach book.
this week's lesson talks about the whole idea that the book of job relates the central issue of the entire cosmos, a vital issue raised by satan, where satan questions whether humans follow god because of what they are given, or because he deserves it.
i'm surprised that the book of job, obviously archetypal and figurative (for example, i doubt people back then literally spoke for hours in hebrew verse, and i doubt that four messengers showed up all in a row with stories telling that they, only they, got away to tell of a disaster) even has a place in the canon; aside from its lack of any specific historical position or accuracy, the argument it advances (especially as the society interprets it) is facile: the idea that privileged, wealthy, powerful job somehow stands as a representative for all humanity and serves as a litmus test for man's interaction with god is downright silly.
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under_believer
This is an example of exactly what I'm talking about--Regardless of whether Rev. contains passages indicating that Satan "accuses our brothers" (note: it doesn't say anything about him accusing or taunting God)--regardless of all of that, it still doesn't validate the Bible Teach book application of Proverbs 27:11 (one which has been used hundreds of times to enforce organizational loyalty and Pharasaical cleanliness among Jehovah's Witnesses.)
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356
Say You're a Bethelite & Monitoring JWD - How Would You Feel About THESE??
by Seeker4 ini'm talking about the new posters, like kitten whiskers, who started posting today (hope this works: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/120817/1.ashx).
and it seems like we're getting a few like this nearly every day.
people who were raised jws, really worry that they are doing the right thing in leaving, yet who have been made to feel not good enough by the wts, who felt they never measured up, who struggled with it, but came to realize that what they'd been brought up to believe was just not the truth.. the same stories are told over and over again, and they come from sincere, good people - not whiny, fault-finding apostates like the rest of us riffraff around here!
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under_believer
AuldSoul said: "But Jehovah always worked with individuals, as far as I can tell."
I'm just playing the devil's advocate here (you know where I stand on the organization issue) but this statement isn't strictly true. Someone can always point to the Levitical priesthood as being an organization that Jehovah worked with. -
117
"That I may make a reply to him that is taunting me"
by under_believer inso for our "congregation book study", we are still deeply mired in the bible teach book.
this week's lesson talks about the whole idea that the book of job relates the central issue of the entire cosmos, a vital issue raised by satan, where satan questions whether humans follow god because of what they are given, or because he deserves it.
i'm surprised that the book of job, obviously archetypal and figurative (for example, i doubt people back then literally spoke for hours in hebrew verse, and i doubt that four messengers showed up all in a row with stories telling that they, only they, got away to tell of a disaster) even has a place in the canon; aside from its lack of any specific historical position or accuracy, the argument it advances (especially as the society interprets it) is facile: the idea that privileged, wealthy, powerful job somehow stands as a representative for all humanity and serves as a litmus test for man's interaction with god is downright silly.
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under_believer
But look at how the Society is using Prov. 27:11:
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*** bh chap. 12 p. 119 par. 14 Living in a Way That Pleases God ***
The issue of integrity to God that was raised by Satan was not directed against Job alone. You too are involved. This is clearly shown at Proverbs 27:11, where Jehovah's Word says: "Be wise, my son, and make my heart rejoice, that I may make a reply to him that is taunting me." These words, written hundreds of years after Job's death, show that Satan was still taunting God and accusing His servants. When we live in a way that pleases Jehovah, we actually help to give an answer to Satan's false charges, and in that way we make God's heart rejoice. How do you feel about that? Would it not be wonderful to have a part in answering the Devil's lying claims, even if it means making certain changes in your life?
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By referring to the amount of time that had transpired since Job supposedly took place, they're saying that Proverbs 27:11 was written explicitly about Satan taunting Jehovah. But there's no indication that that's actually the case. Nobody reading that scripture would ever think that, taken in context, especially embedded in such an odd place where it doesn't fit. -
117
"That I may make a reply to him that is taunting me"
by under_believer inso for our "congregation book study", we are still deeply mired in the bible teach book.
this week's lesson talks about the whole idea that the book of job relates the central issue of the entire cosmos, a vital issue raised by satan, where satan questions whether humans follow god because of what they are given, or because he deserves it.
i'm surprised that the book of job, obviously archetypal and figurative (for example, i doubt people back then literally spoke for hours in hebrew verse, and i doubt that four messengers showed up all in a row with stories telling that they, only they, got away to tell of a disaster) even has a place in the canon; aside from its lack of any specific historical position or accuracy, the argument it advances (especially as the society interprets it) is facile: the idea that privileged, wealthy, powerful job somehow stands as a representative for all humanity and serves as a litmus test for man's interaction with god is downright silly.
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under_believer
Careful, there, Mr. E. You are advocating a viewpoint that allows anyone to apply any scripture, any way they like. In reality, it's vital to consider the context of each scripture--why was it written? What does the surrounding passage say? Who was the writer, and who was his audience?
> The meaning applys to job, does it not?
In fact there is no evidence that the writer of Prov 27:11 had any intent to write about Job. Remember, the surrounding verses have absolutely nothing to do with this "great court case." Nothing to do with Job at all. The fact that the writer expresses a sentiment that could be seen as being similar to Jehovah's regarding the testing incident does not mean that in fact it is referring to that event. The Society read that scripture, realized it supported their belief that we must help God make a reply to Satan, and applied it that way. But that doesn't automatically mean they're correct--you don't believe they are infallible, do you?
> All scriptures are from Jehovah to us, agreed?
Absolutely not agreed. If that was the case, then everything in the Mosaic Law would still apply to Christians. We can't just take scriptures in isolation and read them as though they are God talking to us. In fact, the Mosaic law has been invalidated. In fact, humans are no longer under a command to "be fruitful and fill the earth and become many." In fact, Christians no longer directly receive the Holy Spirit for gifts of prophecy, tongues, and so on. Those are just some examples of where scriptures should not be read as a direct command from Jehovah to us. There are many more, including, I believe, Prov. 27:11.
Why is this the case? Because, put in context, these various scriptures no longer apply in this modern age.
Prov 27:11 and its context makes no mention of Job, of Jehovah, of Jesus, of Satan, of any universal court case, of any challenge to divine sovereignty. The Society is misusing it (very often) to support a doctrine which is never even mentioned anywhere in the Bible. Universal Sovereignty is a red herring. It is self-aggrandizement by the Society, making humans (and Witnesses in particular) far more important than the Bible gives them any right to feel. -
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To Loyal Witnesses: Please Listen!
by metatron inif you are a loyal, zealous witness, please listen to me.. i'm going to tell you straight from my heart, right out of.
my hard-won personal experience, how to avoid unhappiness.. here it is:.
don't bet on games you can't win.. let me illustrate.
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under_believer
What a great thread resurrection.
I have known so many bright young fresh-faced elders who swore they were going to change things and make a difference. Without exception every one of these guys is now broken, downcast, bland, discouraged, disillusioned. It breaks my heart to think of them and their broken dreams. -
117
"That I may make a reply to him that is taunting me"
by under_believer inso for our "congregation book study", we are still deeply mired in the bible teach book.
this week's lesson talks about the whole idea that the book of job relates the central issue of the entire cosmos, a vital issue raised by satan, where satan questions whether humans follow god because of what they are given, or because he deserves it.
i'm surprised that the book of job, obviously archetypal and figurative (for example, i doubt people back then literally spoke for hours in hebrew verse, and i doubt that four messengers showed up all in a row with stories telling that they, only they, got away to tell of a disaster) even has a place in the canon; aside from its lack of any specific historical position or accuracy, the argument it advances (especially as the society interprets it) is facile: the idea that privileged, wealthy, powerful job somehow stands as a representative for all humanity and serves as a litmus test for man's interaction with god is downright silly.
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under_believer
Whereas I laid out my reasoning on why it does not apply to the concept of Satan taunting Jehovah, you simply countered with what effectively amounts to "oh yes it does apply."
Why do you believe that it applies? What in the context leads you to believe that it is more than just a generic proverb, that it was Solomon being inspired to write a statement directly from Jehovah to us? -
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Letter from a family member: is there even a point?
by under_believer ini have been corresponding with a certain family member of mine on the problems i have with the society and the witnesses.
we've been mostly outlining the parameters such a discussion would take (a sort of meta-discussion) rather than having the discussion itself.
i received this lovely gem from this family member today: .
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under_believer
GG/BG, you're the only one who's mentioned it. If anyone else has "gotten" my avatar, they're not telling me about it.
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117
"That I may make a reply to him that is taunting me"
by under_believer inso for our "congregation book study", we are still deeply mired in the bible teach book.
this week's lesson talks about the whole idea that the book of job relates the central issue of the entire cosmos, a vital issue raised by satan, where satan questions whether humans follow god because of what they are given, or because he deserves it.
i'm surprised that the book of job, obviously archetypal and figurative (for example, i doubt people back then literally spoke for hours in hebrew verse, and i doubt that four messengers showed up all in a row with stories telling that they, only they, got away to tell of a disaster) even has a place in the canon; aside from its lack of any specific historical position or accuracy, the argument it advances (especially as the society interprets it) is facile: the idea that privileged, wealthy, powerful job somehow stands as a representative for all humanity and serves as a litmus test for man's interaction with god is downright silly.
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under_believer
Mr. E, welcome to the forum.
Your explanation of the Society's teachings are interesting, but the thrust of this thread is the misapplication of Proverbs 27:11. Do you have any comments on that topic?