Posts by icocer

13

Watchtower interprets early christians - need reference

by icocer in

we were quite surprised, then, to learn that the february 1, 1992 .

watchtower magazine contained an article that attempted to deal with .

the teachings of ignatius of antioch regarding the deity of christ.

icocer

We were quite surprised, then, to learn that the February 1, 1992
Watchtower magazine contained an article that attempted to deal with
the teachings of Ignatius of Antioch regarding the Deity of Christ.
We knew that a series of articles had begun in the November 1, 1991
Watchtower entitled "Did the Early Church Teach That God is a
Trinity?" We felt that this series was an attempt to buttress the
tremendously flawed material that had appeared in the "Trinity"
booklet two years earlier. In the second part of this series, which
is to be found in the February 1, 1992 edition of the Watchtower,
pages 19-23, we find an attempt to deal with The Didache, Clement of
Rome's letter to the Corinthians, Ignatius of Antioch, Polycarp,
Hermas, and Papias. The article shows unconstrained bias in its
dealing with each of these patristic sources, but we will focus our
attention in this article upon the comments that take up all of page
21, those comments that deal with Ignatius of Antioch.

from: www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/apl/jw/ignatius.txt

I found this article while googling for the "ignatius watchtower". Can someone obtain these watchtowers somehow? I would love to read them myself. I begged my JW co-worker for some CD he allways looks at when I have a question. He told me no, I needed to be studying to be a publisher. Tempting Actually, also how can I obtain one of those CD's?

218

The Duality -- The Father and The Son

by UnDisfellowshipped in

do jehovah's witnesses believe in two gods or one god?

do they believe in a "duality"?

do jehovah's witnesses and/or the angels worship jesus christ?.

icocer

Are you making an effort to start a new thread

sorry dawg. Like I said I'll shut my mouth. Defeated soundly.

218

The Duality -- The Father and The Son

by UnDisfellowshipped in

do jehovah's witnesses believe in two gods or one god?

do they believe in a "duality"?

do jehovah's witnesses and/or the angels worship jesus christ?.

icocer

books

A great book for laypeople on the Jewish context of early Christianity is George Nickelsburg's Ancient Judaism and Christian Origins: Diversity, Continuity, and Transformation. On the subject of early Christian theology (and the development of the Trinity), the classic book is certainly JND Kelly's Early Christian Doctrine. There are a host of other great books that take different positions and offer different insights, but those can get you started. :) A very important recent book that may be a little more advanced is Larry Hurtado's Lord Jesus Christ: Devotion to Jesus in Earliest Christianity...which is the definitive analysis of early Christian binitarianism.

Before I open my mouth any more on this topic I wanted to do some research. I asked one of this sites more respected (in my opinion) posters about books on early christianity for the average layperson. This was thier responce to me.

I am a bit emberassed about the "please dont just say the Bible" comment. The guy I debate with allways comes back with the "bible" responce when I tell him that I see no proof that his theology continued after the apostolic age until 300 ad with Arius. He tells me how the church went apostate on the duality issue the second (probably withing the millisecond) the apostle John died. So only his 20th century theologians (the Bible) are right, disregarding what guys decades or centuries removed from the source have to say on the issue.

218

The Duality -- The Father and The Son

by UnDisfellowshipped in

do jehovah's witnesses believe in two gods or one god?

do they believe in a "duality"?

do jehovah's witnesses and/or the angels worship jesus christ?.

icocer

fjthoth wrote:

Shouldn’t the Torture and Death Penalty Be Restoredfor Persons Who Reject the Trinity???

The word “Trinity” appears not even once in the entire Bible. That’s a grand total of zero times regardless of the popular translation or version we use.

However, hundreds of years after the Bible was completed, some religious and political men got together and wrote up the Athanasian Creed. In the Creed, they set forth the doctrine of the Trinity, and they laid down the law that anyone, Christian or non-Christian, who doesn’t believe their Creed will enter eternal fire!

Now, the apostles and other early Christians knew nothing about that Creed. It was written long after they had all died. Will those early Christians be resurrected? Jesus said they will, but there is no record that any of them ever used the word “Trinity” in their daily conversations or in letters to friends and others.

If believers in the Athanasian Creed are right, Jesus was wrong, and there will be no resurrection for anybody who lived during the earliest centures of the Christian era! We are made to wonder why Jesus was not more considerate. If only he had thought to use the word “Trinity” at least on a few occasions, his apostles and others might have gotten the hint that maybe this was something they better believe or else! Alas, however, they all died without ever even hearing the name of a doctrine so vital to their resurrection and eternal existence!

There might have been some hope for them if only the compilers of the Athanasian Creed had been around to remind Jesus of this very important matter! How sad!

On the other hand, would they have understood? Many today are also doomed eternally because they just can’t comprehend this teaching of the Athanasian Creed. They just can’t get their minds around the notion that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are not the same entity, and yet at the same time they are the same entity, namely, God. How sad for them!

hundreds of years after the Bible was completed, some religious and political men got together and wrote up the Athanasian Creed - This was around 500 AD or there abouts. A few hundred years before this is Arius (300 ad). Before that the early church writters who were not Athanasian Creeders but Trinitarians in a different form. Is there any writtings before 300 ad and after 100 ad that show a more Unitarian point of view? Please dont just say the Bible.

8

Does anyone have this? Cool if you did. Craking down on deciet.

by icocer in

from "should you believe in the trinity"the catholic encyclopedia also comments: "in scripture there is as yet no single term by which the three divine persons are denoted together.

the word [tri'as] (of which the latin trinitas is a translation) is first found in theophilus of antioch about a. d. 180. .

shortly afterwards it appears in its latin form of trinitas in tertullian.

icocer

One down, thanks JWFacts.

8

Does anyone have this? Cool if you did. Craking down on deciet.

by icocer in

from "should you believe in the trinity"the catholic encyclopedia also comments: "in scripture there is as yet no single term by which the three divine persons are denoted together.

the word [tri'as] (of which the latin trinitas is a translation) is first found in theophilus of antioch about a. d. 180. .

shortly afterwards it appears in its latin form of trinitas in tertullian.

icocer

From "Should you Believe in the Trinity"

The Catholic Encyclopedia also comments: "In Scripture there is as yet no single term by which the Three Divine Persons are denoted together. The word [tri'as] (of which the Latin trinitas is a translation) is first found in Theophilus of Antioch about A. D. 180. . . . Shortly afterwards it appears in its Latin form of trinitas in Tertullian ." However, this is no proof in itself that Tertullian taught the Trinity.

Look what the Watchtower left out to deceive you! (notice the ellipse: ". . .") "The word [tri'as] (of which the Latin trinitas is a translation) is first found in Theophilus of Antioch about A. D. 180.He speaks of "the Trinity of God [the Father], His Word and His Wisdom" ("Ad. Autol.", 11, 15, P. G., VI, 1078). The term may, of course, have been in use before his time. Shortly afterwards it appears in its Latin form of trinitas in Tertullian. "

Need a photo copy of this Catholic Encyclopedia page.

The Catholic work Trinitas-A Theological Encyclopedia of the Holy Trinity , for example, notes that some of Tertullian's words were later used by others to describe the Trinity. Then it cautions: " But hasty conclusions cannot be drawn from usage, for he does not apply the words to Trinitarian theology ."

Once again Look at what the Watchtower left out. "The great African fashioned the Latin language of the Trinity, and many of his words and phrases remained permanently in use: the words Trinitas and persona, the formulas 'one substance in three persons,' 'God from God, light from Light .' He uses the word substantia 400 times, as he uses consubstantialis and consubstantivus, but hasty conclusions cannot be drawn from usage, for he does not apply the words to Trinitarian theology "

Need photo copy of this Theological Encyclopedia.

My Jw co-worker after a 1-1/2 years of telling him the the early christians are misrepresented in "Should you believe in the Trinity" told me today that he is thinking about writing the Watchtower on the lack of references for the early christians. It was a very interesting discussion. He however felt very confident that Tertullian did not believe in the trinity and quoted the above refences. I did not realize until tonight that he was quoting the booklet itself. Hence why I would love to show actual copies of their quoting practices.

On an interesting note he asked me if they do have deceptive quoting why have they not been found out. I told him that they have been found out, only he is not allowed to ever see or hear any evidence of it. "Your summer convention told you not to look at websites or listen to things that I am saying, so how could you ever find out if your organization has been found out or not?"

2

Maybe, Just Maybe, He is thinking.

by icocer in

for over a year i have been repeating the fact that the watchtower is misrepresenting the early christians in their "should you believe in the trinity" to my jw co-worker.

i tell him that i can't find their references as well as i have over 20 references that say the complete opposite.

time and time again i have spoken about this and i get dismissed in a number of ways.

icocer

For over a year I have been repeating the fact that the watchtower is misrepresenting the early christians in their "Should you believe in the Trinity" to my JW co-worker. I tell him that I can't find their references as well as I have over 20 references that say the complete opposite. Time and time again I have spoken about this and I get dismissed in a number of ways. He even told me to write the Governing Body. I told him that I would if he researches with me and then we'll write the letter together.

Well today I mentioned that tonight CNN has some series on the early christians. As the conversation progressed he said he was considering writting the Governing body in order to answer my questions. He had a sheet that contained the early christians quotes in their booklet to confirm that those were the ones in dispute. Yep, there they were in there elliptical glory. Well see what happends. Please prayer for him.

If you have some input please on this topic please give. EX. Good books to read. I have read a pamphlet that I bought on Randy's site. Websites. Whatever.

22

Is the Watchtower really this decietful? Say it aint so. Really?

by icocer in

i found this page that list what they believe are their top 10 deceptive quotes in the "should you believe in the trinity" booklet.

the site is trinitarian.

my itention is not to prove or disporve the trinity, it is to find out if the watchtower is really this decietful.

icocer

StillXElder. Well I thank you for being a mole. The way I see it you are saving peoples lives.

22

Is the Watchtower really this decietful? Say it aint so. Really?

by icocer in

i found this page that list what they believe are their top 10 deceptive quotes in the "should you believe in the trinity" booklet.

the site is trinitarian.

my itention is not to prove or disporve the trinity, it is to find out if the watchtower is really this decietful.

icocer

This saddening and maddening. I have this guy at work who I know would be the kind of person who would be a best friend type, but I know he views me as an opposer. I dont care what he believes I just want him to do his HOMEWORK. Sorry, off topic.

I wanted to see the opinions from the eyes of former JW's, that this site was being honest about their research. Thanks for responding and thanks for information on other publications. Google with some specifics on searches can lead to some great finds.

22

Is the Watchtower really this decietful? Say it aint so. Really?

by icocer in

i found this page that list what they believe are their top 10 deceptive quotes in the "should you believe in the trinity" booklet.

the site is trinitarian.

my itention is not to prove or disporve the trinity, it is to find out if the watchtower is really this decietful.

icocer

I found this page that list what they believe are their top 10 deceptive quotes in the "Should you believe in the trinity" booklet. The site is trinitarian. My itention is not to prove or disporve the trinity, it is to find out if the watchtower is really this decietful. In your opinion is what this site saying about the Watchtower qouting practices valid?

www.bible.ca/trinity/trinity-jw-deceptions-top-ten-list-start.htm

This is their top ten list, the site actually goes through the entire booklet. Another question I have is, has the Watchtower totally misquoted the early church writters on the Trinity subject?