Posts by serotonin

105

Christianity in a nutshell

by serotonin_wraith in

let's see exactly what people are holding so firmly to, while all the time believing they aren't actually deluded.. section taken from: .

http://www.richarddawkins.net/article,1816,are-the-new-atheists-avoiding-the-real-arguments,edmund-standing-butterfliesandwheelscom.

first, let's take a quick look at the basic biblical narrative:.

serotonin_wraith

I got a personal response from Serotonin instead of his placing anything further in reply to this thread.

This was because this thread is about the basic beliefs of Christianity, and I saw no point in posting what I put in the other thread, here. You seemed to have concerns about respecting beliefs, so I directed you to a thread that dealt with that exact subject. It was not to avoid responding to you here. It was because that line of thought had already been dealt with recently- in the thread I directed you to. Posting a PRIVATE message in the public arena is not what I expected to see.

Now, again I ask - because still no one can answer this - exactly what in the first post is not true? Point out one sentence that Christians do not believe. People say there are lies there, yet when asked what lies there are, all I hear is that they just don't like the way it sounds, when the actual content isn't in question.

I've enjoyed the majority of persons on here. But to be honest I didn't come here to defend or debate. I was also expecting people to be past this. I was looking for support and offering support. I was looking for friends who, unlike Witnesses, would like me regardless if I shared their beliefs or not.

May I suggest you avoid the debating threads then and stick to the supporting ones. There are threads here for everyone, and if you aren't keen on one, nobody will force you to read it or take part in it. I also find it hypocritical of you to be talking about respecting beliefs, while at the same time you don't respect my belief that people can debate matters important to them.

Who says I don't like you because we have a difference of opinion? If you honestly think that, all I can say is I'm sorry if I gave you that impression. You need to seperate the person from the beliefs.

Lovelylil:

after a while it ocurred to me that no matter what answer I give, seratonin will not accept it.

This is because I do not have blind faith. If a Muslim tried to defend Islam to you, I can't see you agreeing Islam is true. You would want good reasons to believe, and so do I. So far, you have presented no good reason whatsoever to believe in the Biblical god. Is it wrong for me to not accept your answers because I find them inadequate?

5

A belated reply to serotonin_wraith

by GentlyFeral in

this is a long-belated reply to serotonin_wraith's thread here (currently inaccessible for some reason).. serotonin_wraith,.

gentlyferal,.

either the bible is the word of god or it is not.

serotonin_wraith

I agree with you, Anti-Christ.

It's like the hieroglyphics (sp?). They're important in that we can see what the Egyptians believed and get a glimpse into their society- but that wouldn't make us take a leap to believing Ra or Osiris are real gods. There's no reason to think they have anything to do with any deist god either, which is what I think GentlyFeral is implying. How she knows this is certainly beyond me.

131

Why are we telling Iran they can't have nukes?

by mavie in

jw
friends

watching the democratic debates i was struck how every candidate, save dennis kucinich, pledged to prevent iran from obtaining a nuclear weapon.

iran is a sovereign state, diplomacy which ends in 'you can't have this, but we can' will not work.

what would happen if another country told us we couldn't have nukes?

serotonin_wraith

Can someone provide proof or a source or something that shows Iran wants to make nuclear weapons, because the last I heard they only wanted nuclear power stations, not weapons. They're not anywhere near making weapons, even if they wanted to. Is there something I missed, or has the propaganda machine done its job?

5

A belated reply to serotonin_wraith

by GentlyFeral in

this is a long-belated reply to serotonin_wraith's thread here (currently inaccessible for some reason).. serotonin_wraith,.

gentlyferal,.

either the bible is the word of god or it is not.

serotonin_wraith

Abstract: The parts of the Bible you cite are not historical or scientific.

Who decides this? What makes the story of magical strength giving hair a metaphor, and a person rising from the dead a real historical event? (This is if you don't think Jesus' resurrection was a metaphor). If you do, are we dealing with a book of fairy tales here?

Is "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" true? Do you want it to be true?

It's good advice. But we don't get it from reading the Bible, like you say...

Conscience is the best canon we have, yet consciences differ.

There are some universal 'rules' we follow with our consciences- the 'golden rule' is one of them. Occasionally people don't, but we have ways to punish those people. On the whole, our consciences are in agreement. What we consider right or wrong may differ from person to person, but that's how change happens. Slavery would still be considered okay if there were those who didn't agree.

We have as much evidence for the innocuousness of homosexuality as we do for the reality of evolution, so Paul was talking through his hat on this subject. Does that make the "Love" chapter of 1 Corinthians any less useful as a guide for life?

If we determine what is right and wrong, why hold 'holy' books in such high esteem? What are we actually getting from them that we don't get from our own minds?

I never said that "the Bible is true." I said that "truth is in the Bible." Rather than "the Bible is God's word," I believe the Bible includes God's word: as does all the world's scripture and scientific literature and art.

Are you saying 'God's word' is basically our consciences and any scientific truths written in text books, etc? Whatever we consider 'right' is from God? So if there's one line in say, The Book of Mormon, that our consciences agree with, that line is from God? Not that he put it there, but when it was written, that line came from the writer's conscience, which is from God? If I'm barking up the wrong tree, tell me.

The creative force, the power of love, the sense that the universe is conspiring to bless us

Okay, the creative force is blind. 99% of all animals the 'creative force' has made are now extinct. A big part of this 'force' has to do with some species suffering so that others gain an advantage. Just look at the food chain. Is this 'god'?

The power of love- as part of evolution, we came to see love as a beneficial attribute. Did it develop naturally, or is this 'god'?

The universe conspiring to bless us- we can't live anywhere in the universe except for in a thin strip of breathable air on one planet out of billions. A disease could wipe most of us out, an asteroid could destroy the planet, another species may gain a foothold in the future, our sun is going to fry Earth, and - this is one I found out today - the milky way is going to collide with Andromeda in 2 billion years. It's a long way off, but it just shows that humanity won't be living on this planet forever. If we don't find a new home, we will die out. Will the universe provide this new home, or will we have to do the work? Don't get me wrong, I feel extremely lucky to be alive, but the universe conspiring to make it so? I just don't see it.

Yes!!! Finally you get it!!!!

Haha, well this is what I don't get then. If it's all coming from within us anyway, why should 'holy' books be considered so 'holy'? I can see how the book can be interesting as a piece of literature, much like other mythological books. But beyond that?

Will you see God in what I've just written too?

(For anyone in the UK who's interested in hearing more about the colliding galaxies, there's a show on it at 7.30, BBC4 tonight).

73

Is it POOR PARENTING to raise a child into a religious faith?

by nicolaou in

or, by the same token, to raise a child to be atheist?

surely we should teach our children how to think, not what to think.

equip them with the mental tools they need to be able to work things out for themselves.

serotonin_wraith

LT:

At what age would you take that approach? The very young would likely be confused by it. They like certainty. They like to believe that their parents are invincible, powerful and always corrent. Until they reach their teens, that is

Children don't like their parents to lie.

On the subject of god, I would tell them nobody knows. I don't think I would have to give a definite answer to them, that would be lying. I would say I don't believe, but plenty do. I would tell them lots of people around the world believe in different gods, and there are gods that nobody believes in any more.

5

A belated reply to serotonin_wraith

by GentlyFeral in

this is a long-belated reply to serotonin_wraith's thread here (currently inaccessible for some reason).. serotonin_wraith,.

gentlyferal,.

either the bible is the word of god or it is not.

serotonin_wraith

Thanks for the reply. I'll get back to you tomorrow- it's late here now.

73

Is it POOR PARENTING to raise a child into a religious faith?

by nicolaou in

or, by the same token, to raise a child to be atheist?

surely we should teach our children how to think, not what to think.

equip them with the mental tools they need to be able to work things out for themselves.

serotonin_wraith

LT,

I think some things should be made clear from the start to a child. 'Be careful of which adults you trust' would be a good one. They could use critical thinking skills and ask themselves questions like 'Is this person a teacher?' or 'Why is this person I've never met before trying to get me into his car?'

With things like Santa and the tooth fairy, I don't have a problem telling a child about these characters and letting them believe in them. There have been no bad effects to doing this that I have seen in studies or from anyones experiences (unless someone can show me otherwise) and in most cases they stop believing in them before the age of 10. If they don't, and carry on believing in Santa or the tooth fairy into adulthood, we have people and places that can help them- doctors and mental institutes.

If a child is 12 and says they don't believe in Santa, telling them they're wrong, or that you're disappointed in them, or treating them as if they're on Santa's bad list, is a bad attitude to have.

Fantasy in childhood is part of our development, but I don't think it should carry on past that. I'm not talking about using the imagination, I'm talking about really believing in people such as Santa. When fantasy ends, reality takes over. You may agree that reality is good and should be part of our worldview, but if not I can go into that in more detail.

I would be okay telling them my views, but I'd also tell them that they were mine, and that they didn't have to agree. If they became religious and didn't like to hear me bash faith, I wouldn't do it in their presence. That would be forcing them to listen.

On the topic of religion, I feel there is no reason to believe in a god and I see faith as another word for ignorance. My views may not be better, but I think they are, and that's why we get debates on the subject. I'm willing to be proved wrong.

People decide for themselves what to believe in the end, and talking about these things openly can be beneficial. I think it would be harder to accept new information if all we had were our own thoughts. Outside influence comes in and teaches us things we may not have known before.

I put god at the same level as faries, trolls or monsters under the bed. When god belief reaches this level in society as a whole, it may be okay to say to a young child there's an invisible being who made everything. It would be like telling them there's a man at the north pole who brings presents. It's fun to believe for a while, but it shouldn't be for life.

There would be other points to consider, of course. Like the prayer example- telling a child the tooth fairy is real is one thing, but telling the child they can have a personal relationship with the tooth fairy, that it has a special place you go to when you lose all your teeth or that any problems should be told to the tooth fairy before bed, is bad. It goes much deeper than a childhood fantasy then.

Appeals to emotion shouldn't be part of a debate, but in this case it is a hard one to avoid. People shouldn't be made to suffer, and if indoctrination can make a child suffer in some way (even in subtle ways) it should be open to discussion. If it was pointed out that people starving in Africa was a problem, it would not be dismissed as an appeal to emotion. It may affect us emotionally, but it is still a problem.

3

The Two Bibles

by ProdigalSon in

[we are;] for we are not peddlers of the word of god as many men are, but as out of sincerity, yes, as sent from god, under gods view, in company with christ, we are speaking.

2 corinthians 2:17, new world translation of the holy scriptures.

heres what was translated as peddlers: kapeleuo from kapelos (a huckster); to retail, that is, (by implication) to adulterate (figuratively): - corrupt.

serotonin_wraith

An invisible dragon, or invisible man shaped being with wings (or possibly without now), depending on which verse is to be believed, used his telepathic mind invading powers to make people write false Bibles, and then he made sure they were hidden away as to confuse people in this day and age from knowing which was the REAL Bible.

73

Is it POOR PARENTING to raise a child into a religious faith?

by nicolaou in

or, by the same token, to raise a child to be atheist?

surely we should teach our children how to think, not what to think.

equip them with the mental tools they need to be able to work things out for themselves.

serotonin_wraith

To be honest LT, just telling the child one thing that isn't true is bad parenting to me. 'If you pray to god he will help you' may sound all nice and friendly, but I don't think it's a good thing to tell a child to talk to themselves if they're having problems- which is essentially what is being said.

It's not just JWs who have laws about 'apostates'. You do NOT want to be a Muslim apostate in the Middle East.

So while many religions aren't as dangerous as the JWs, I still see danger but in another form. One that isn't as obvious but still affects children.

73

Is it POOR PARENTING to raise a child into a religious faith?

by nicolaou in

or, by the same token, to raise a child to be atheist?

surely we should teach our children how to think, not what to think.

equip them with the mental tools they need to be able to work things out for themselves.

serotonin_wraith

If children are taught critical thinking skills then I can't see how they would be fooled by religion, but if they are, I wouldn't force them to listen to anything from me they may find offensive. Just as I don't force people now.

serotonin_wraith

Posts by serotonin_wraith