Posts by Hoping4Change

21

Circuit Assembly

by frozen one in

jw
friends

i chatted with relatives today and mentioned i might be in their area next weekend so i'd stop by for a visit.

turns out they will be at the circuit assembly, a 2 dayer.

seems like they just got back from the district todo.

Hoping4Change

Juni - Yes, thanks for the response. Just as an fyi, I am neither a JW (past or present) or DF/DA. Just someone with connections to some who are.

22

when you think about it, when the elders disfellowship and then shun a person, it's to make an impact on the active ones still going to the meetings, rather than the df'd one.. they elders couldn't care less about the one who has been disfellowshipped.

that person is dead to their eyes.. the reason they make this so terrible, is a warning to the ones still active, not to try this.. some kind of blackmail, intended to the active ones.. .

Hoping4Change

Has anyone ever done a "point by point" critique of the "official stance" on shunning as it is outlined here: http://www.watchtower.org/library/w/1988/4/15/article_01.htm

21

Circuit Assembly

by frozen one in

jw
friends

i chatted with relatives today and mentioned i might be in their area next weekend so i'd stop by for a visit.

turns out they will be at the circuit assembly, a 2 dayer.

seems like they just got back from the district todo.

Hoping4Change

Can non-jws, DA/DF ones goto a Circuit Assembly?

1380

The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible

by thirdwitness in

think about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.

why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?

as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.

Hoping4Change

(a bit off topic - but comments about the discussion that were striking me) Wouldnt it be nice if these kinds of debates/discussions could actually occured WITHIN the organization without fear of reproval, disfellowshipping, shunning, loss of family, etc? So that all who were indeed seeking "the truth" could make up their own minds rather than being threatened if they didnt agree with the 'spititual food' being offered? To be "as brothers in Christ" and not divided over things such as 607/587, perousia, cross/stake, etc....? Didnt Paul scorn the churches of his time for quibbling over things rather than focusing on Christ? Without taking sides on the subject of this board, I hope that jw-apologists here enjoy the liberty and freedom to debate on this board that does not exist (to my knowledge and have yet to see) within the organization. My understanding (and it appears to be many's testimony) is that such debate and holding different view points not only is frowned upon within the organization, but is good enough to get one kicked out and have family members threatened with the same thing if they dont stop associating with the one asking questions For anyone who would be honestly "seeking the truth" of matters in this world, it seems to me the first red flag against anyone or any group would be the inhibiting, stifling, and coercison against such searching and growing. WTBTS to date - strike one, no matter the what faults or how false other religions of the world may have/be.

1380

The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible

by thirdwitness in

think about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.

why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?

as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.

Hoping4Change

3W - Thanks for the clarification.

Just so I understand then, it is this piece of history (""Amazingly secular history agrees that 539 was the year Babylon was conquered ") that is generally agreed upon by everyone, i.e, both sides of the debate? Another way of asking is, if I were to begin researching this from all available sources, then 539 B.C for the conquering of Babylon is the one "generally accepted fact" from which I should begin my own search? Also, can someone, anyone, briefly explain why this 539 date is so well regarded (i.e what are the sources for establishing this date with this event. Thanks, I truly am trying to understand and follow.

1380

The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible

by thirdwitness in

think about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.

why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?

as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.

Hoping4Change

3w said of my question: "Do I really need to comment on that.....again."

3W - I simply asked for some foundation, your premises. Your arrogance is noted.

ringo5 - Thanks for the supporting comment. I'm always leary of throwing my two cents into these huge discussions becuase I feel like a flyweight in a heavy weight bout, and typically expect to be ignored/tossed off as 3w has done. As much as I have tried to remain and approach JW material/claims with an open mind (I am neither a current or past jw, simply an interested 3rd party who does have, however, some connection with jw's of which i cant speak), I am constantly challenged (and sometimes fail) to remain calm when time after time all I see and hear from so many JWs and their material is an arrogance that appears so simply 'un-christian', at least so far as my understanding of Christianity goes. (lol, even now as I type, I can hear the JW claim that i have simply been decieved by satan the devil and the rest of christendom). I listen with open heart and open mind to what JW's offer yet continually find that it isnt Christendom which 'stumbles' me from 'being in the truth', JW's do it well enough by themselves.

1380

The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible

by thirdwitness in

think about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.

why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?

as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.

Hoping4Change

3W - You state that this proof is ".....according to the irrefutable evidence presented in God's word the Bible" Can you please explain the following: Fact: There are no dates in the bible. Therefore: In order to use the "irrefutable evidence presented in God's word the Bible", one must use SOME piece of secular/archaelogical/worldly evidence to establish AT LEAST ONE date from which to begin deriving any other chronological claims based upon "the irrefutable evidence presented in God's word the Bible." Please, can you give us what date and established from what "secular/archaelogical/worldly evidence" is used to do the rest of the derivation. I find that in order for your presented proof to begin merit investigation, you must present your "accepted" premises along with "why" it is accepted. Then and only then, is it possible to proceed with the proof offered. And one more thing, please do not just provide a link to some other site, or long winded thread. I just would like to know the foundational assumptions upon which this proof is based. Thanks.

2

Adam/Sin - Free will or Satan

by Hoping4Change in

just a quick question:

the new "what does the bible really teach?

" book says that "satan caused adam to sin".

Hoping4Change

Just a quick question: The new "What Does the Bible Really Teach?" book says that "Satan caused Adam to sin". (book not with me at the moment to provide page #) If Satan CAUSED Adam to sin, how was it that Adam was acting out of FREE WILL when he sinned. Surely Adam had no CHOICE if Satan CAUSED him to sin. ?? Can someone explain? Thanks.

142

539 BCE

by Zico in

jw
friends

a quote from this site - http://www.2001translation.com/jerusalem's%20destruction%20587%20or%20607.htm says that 'most historians agree that 539-b.c.e.

is the date of the overthrow of babylon, for there is much evidence pointing to this.

so, it is called an absolute date.

Hoping4Change

More questions from a simple person: Scholar: Please can you tell me: 1) Who and where are the celebrated WT scholars? You see, the reason I ask is that it seems a reasonable thing that for someone sincerely interested in such matters, one should be able to ascertain (to some degree) the 'qualifications' of those presenting/representing certain theories and ideas. Much in the same way that people check out (and are assured of) the credentials of their doctors and surgeons, think of this whole relgious arena as people seeking out doctors and surgeons for their spirituality. Surely people should investigate and find out the qualifications of those offering spiritual services and likewise, those offering themselves as being qualified to make such offerings have some kind of obligation and duty to show that they are indeed qualified to assist the individual seeking 'spiritual assistance'. Is there any part of this that doesnt make sense, or have I misunderstood something? Is there anyone else besides Furuli that you can give as an example of a WT scholar? And can you also describe in what way one may properly consider Furuli a "celebrated" scholar? 2) Again (as I have asked in other threads) can you please tell me what "biblical chronology" is? From everything I have read to date, it would appear as though the WT chronology relies just as much upon "secular chronology" as anyone else; i.e, WT chronology IS every bit as much SECULAR chronology as any other line of chronological reasoning. There is not a single date in the bible, hence all chronology absolutely must be secular based, correct? Truly trying to understand...

11

Do Kingdom Halls ever do the following?

by Hoping4Change in

i am assuming that the sunday and tuesday services are open to the general public.

do the kingdom halls ever stop someone from coming to these services simply becuase it is known that they dont agree with what is being taught (i.e an 'unbeliever')?

how about if a known 'unbeliever' joins a 'believing' spouse for all the meetings?

Hoping4Change

Thanks for all the responses! I dont need their library; I have Freeminds, ebay, this site and reexaminer for all the stuff I would ever need.