Dogpatch

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Posts by Dogpatch

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  39

  My congregation & the UN (Update)...

  by caballoSentado in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  hi friends,.

  firstly, excuse any errors since this is not my native language.

  this is my second post.

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  Dogpatch

  Thanks Caballo,
  Hang in there and keep your love for what is right. All will come together for you soon, I hope.
  Randy Watters
  
  Net Soup!
  http://www.freeminds.org
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  26

  WT's new propaganda on net

  by Dogpatch in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  the watchtower has all kinds of new propaganda about lies, manipulation of information, etc.

  http://www.watchtower.org/library/g/2000/6/22/article_02.htm.

  looks like we've all been lied to by apostates, they are really the true religion after all!!.

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  Dogpatch

  some gems from the site:
  THERE is a difference—a big difference—between education and propaganda. Education shows you how to think. Propaganda tells you what to think. Good educators present all sides of an issue and encourage discussion. Propagandists relentlessly force you to hear their view and discourage discussion. Often their real motives are not apparent. They sift the facts, exploiting the useful ones and concealing the others. They also distort and twist facts, specializing in lies and half-truths. Your emotions, not your logical thinking abilities, are their target.

  ____________

  First, examine whether there is bias. What is the motive for the message? If the message is rife with name-calling and loaded words, why is that? Loaded language aside, what are the merits of the message itself? Also, if possible, try to check the track record of those speaking. Are they known to speak the truth? If "authorities" are used, who or what are they? Why should you regard this person—or organization or publication—as having expert knowledge or trustworthy information on the subject in question? If you sense some appeal to emotions, ask yourself, 'When viewed dispassionately, what are the merits of the message?'
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  26

  WT's new propaganda on net

  by Dogpatch in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  the watchtower has all kinds of new propaganda about lies, manipulation of information, etc.

  http://www.watchtower.org/library/g/2000/6/22/article_02.htm.

  looks like we've all been lied to by apostates, they are really the true religion after all!!.

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  Dogpatch

  The Watchtower has all kinds of new propaganda about lies, manipulation of information, etc. up at:
  http://www.watchtower.org/library/g/2000/6/22/article_02.htm

  Looks like we've all been lied to by apostates, they are really the true religion after all!!

  Choke, puke, hurl
  Dogz

  Net Soup!
  http://www.freeminds.org
• 
  32

  AHHHH...the love from Bethel!

  by LDH in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  listening to all of new boy's stories of the bethelites has reminded me of one of my own..... when i was about 17 (reg.

  pio.

  )our phone rang in the middle of the night.

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  Dogpatch

  When I was there they had just reinstituted working a half a day on Saturdays. The reason? Knorr said that the Bethelites often took long distance vacations over the weekends, and he wanted to put a stop to it. What a jerk.
  Randy Watters
  http://www.freeminds.org/bethel/exbethel.htm
  Former Bethelites and their stories
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  3

  Nuns and P{riests - abuse

  by Dogpatch in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  nuns face similar problems with authoritarian religious systems.. last nites cbc documentary.

  you may enjoy reading this excerpt:.

  the sins of the father.

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  Dogpatch

  Nuns face similar problems with authoritarian religious systems.

  last nites CBC Documentary. You may enjoy reading this excerpt:
  
  The sins of the father
  Reporter: Frédéric Zalac
  Producer: Marc Cotton
  Editor: Pierre Beaudoin
  Camera: Georges Laszuk, Gugulakhe Radebe and Serge Brunet
  Web: Owen Wood and Daniel Schwartz
  Airdate: March 25, 2002

  Officials at the Catholic Agency for Overseas Development and at Caritas, another Catholic organisation, made disturbing discoveries in the early nineties. They heard testimony from nuns abused by priests in 23 countries around the world. The situation was particularly worrisome in Africa, where AIDS was rampant. According to a confidential 1994 report, some priests had sexually exploited nuns, “because they too had come to fear contamination with HIV by sexual contact with prostitutes and other at risk women.” Although the authors of the report declined our request for an interview, a few members of the church are now speaking out.

  “I think that the hierarchical and patriarchal and clerical nature of the church somehow gives the atmosphere that makes it possible,” says Sister Mary John Mananzan of St-Scholastica College in The Philippines. According to her, silence prevails when a sexual scandal troubles the Church. “That’s why people do it with impunity, they have this kind of thinking that well, nothing will happen, we will not be punished anyway and our bishops will protect us. That’s why it’s going on.”

  Father Philippe Denis, University of Natal, South Africa
  Cases of nun-abuse also trouble Father Philippe Denis, a theologian at the University of Natal in South Africa. “Sex is something that is not easy to talk about, women are taught to accept whatever men ask them to do, and, if it’s a priest, people are also taught in the community to respect the priest and the word of the priest is sacred.” To go against the stream, “You have to be terribly courageous, terribly assertive, to actually respond to this triple challenge.”

  Before Yvonne Maes left the retreat centre, Frank Goodall had asked her to keep quiet. “I still thought it was my fault, I must have done something. It was like women were always to blame. I must have worn the wrong clothes, said the wrong thing, I didn’t protest enough, I didn’t fight so I must have wanted it.”

  Net Soup!
  http://www.freeminds.org
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  5

  Open letter to Ciro Aucilino

  by belbab in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  dear friend,.

  your talk, what the future holds for us, delivered, i believe, to a select audience of jehovahs witnesses; the twenty pages of which i downloaded from the internet, has raised for me some serious questions and since the scriptures exhort us tomake sure of all things i am writing this open letter to you.

  http://www.randytv.com/whatfuturetxt.htm.

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  Dogpatch

  Thanks Belbab,
  A great review and commentary!
  Randy
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  25

  Jehovah Witness Pastors Has A Sheep ...Arrested

  by D wiltshire in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  jehovah witness pastors has a sheep in their care arrested.. hi my name is david wiltshire and i have suffered horribly from the hand of my pastors.

  because i know longer believe the jehovahs witnesses are the only true religion i was disfellowshipped from all jehovahs witnesses i cant even come over their houses any more, they refuse to return my greetings.. the worst torture that they have put on me is that my little grand daughter, who i used to give horsy back rides to cant even be allowed so visit with me for fear both she and her parents could be disfellowshipped.

  the watchpower teaches that you cant fellowship with disfellowshipped persons, so they are good jehovah witnesses and obey the watchpower.. some say the jehovah witness religion is a mind control cult.

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  Dogpatch

  Sorry to hear that Dave,
  They are going to reap their rewards for being so calloused to others.
  Hang in there.
  Randy
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  15

  recent growth projections for churches

  by Dogpatch in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  someone sent me these recent growth projections, haven't verified the source yet, but pretty interesting.

  randy.

  http://www.freeminds.org.

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  Dogpatch

  Someone sent me these recent growth projections, haven't verified the source yet, but pretty interesting. :-))
  Randy
  http://www.freeminds.org

  Denomination 1990 Est. 2001 Est. % Change 1990 - 2001
  Catholic 46,004,000 50,873,000 +11%
  Baptist 33,964,000 33,830,000 0%
  Methodist/Wesleyan 14,174,000 14,150,000 0%
  Lutheran 9,110,000 9,580,000 +5%
  Presbyterian 4,985,000 5,596,000 +12%
  Pentecostal/Charismatic 3,191,000 4,407,000 +38%
  Episcopalian/Anglican 3,042,000 3,451,000 +13%
  United Church of Christ 599,000 1,378,000 +130%
  Jehovah's Witnesses 1,381,000 1,331,000 -4%
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  10

  Visit to a Romanian sect of JWs convention

  by Dogpatch in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  visit to romania and to the.

  i realised i was going to have to radically re-evaluate my preconceptions about romania.

  i spent much of the friday with rahela discussing further the background and beliefs of tfjws.

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  Dogpatch

  Passing this interesting bit on:
  http://www.watchtowernews.org/romcongress.htm

  Part 1:

  Visit to Romania and to the

  6th International Theocratic Congress of the

  True Faith Jehovah’s Witnesses

  21, 22 July 2001

  T­rgu Mures, Romania

  By Bill Blackmore

  Before I report on the Congress itself it may be helpful to those not fully acquainted with me to describe something of my background. This may give perspective to my visit and to what transpired, and it may help a bit with the overall picture. (If you know me already skip this bit or you’ll just get bored!)

  In January of 1999 I embarked on an independent study of the religion I had been associated with for over 38 years (since the age of thirteen), the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society, better known as Jehovah’s Witnesses (JWs). My wife Julia, and many of my immediate family, soon joined me in my research.

  To even think about doing this was difficult. Independent thinking, let alone research of this kind, is strongly discouraged by the JW leadership. Articles condemning “independent thinking” and questioning the Society have appeared in Watchtower literature repeatedly over the decades. So to do this was to go totally against the grain, against all the instincts that had been put into me. Being honest about it, there was a strong element of secrecy at the beginning – even from my wife and family. It was frightening, because you feel as if you’re being somehow disloyal to God, even though you are doing what the Bible tells you to do, which is to “test all things”. In a way it is quite dangerous to do this, or at least to let it be known publicly that you are doing this. To be ‘found out’ can attract stringent and severe sanctions, so we knew that we were entering dangerous territory…religiously speaking.

  From the age of thirteen my whole life had revolved around JWs to the exclusion of almost everything else. I had been active in the religious, social, and family aspects of being a JW, and even my working life was largely oriented around JWs - working with, and for them, for much of the time.

  Baptised in the early 1960’, I was eventually appointed as a Ministerial Servant (deacon), and later an Elder (Pastor). I served in many positions of responsibility in the congregations I was attached to over the years. Occasionally I spoke at assemblies (conventions), perhaps handling the baptism talk, or covering the Watchtower study for that week, and so forth.

  When wrongdoing by members of the congregation was reported, or discovered, Judicial Committees were formed. These were structured according to the instructions outlined in the Society’s secret (elders-only) manual, “Pay Attention to Yourself and to All the Flock”. I sat on a number of such committees, jointly deciding what action to take concerning the people involved. If our decision was to disfellowship (excommunicate) them, we knew this would lead to the whole witness community shunning them. This shunning would be on a local and a worldwide basis. (It is dangerous for a JW not to shun someone who is disfellowshipped since this eventually leads to them being disfellowshipped as well.)

  I had no preconceptions about what my (our) research would uncover. If anything I secretly hoped it would reinforce my JW beliefs, and perhaps even rejuvenate my faith in the organisation. With the benefit of hindsight I am certain none of us could have possibly foreseen, or even imagined where our research would lead, and to what conclusions we would eventually come.

  To cut a long story short, we spent an intensive six-months period just reading, reading, reading. And when I say intensive I mean eight, ten…sometimes twelve-hours a day…reading! We read everything we could get our hands on that related to JW’s. We particularly examined the Society’s own literature, much of it for the first time. It was this that affected us more than anything. We quickly realised how ignorant we had been regarding the true history of the Society. It is no exaggeration to say that what we discovered shocked us to our very core. At times we were so traumatised by what we discovered we simply sat down and wept.

  Because we had stopped going to the Kingdom Hall, and this was becoming more widely known, some of our friends approached us to find out why. In February we told the local elders that we did not intend to come back to the meetings and that we were pursuing certain avenues of research. We anticipated that some of our friends would approach us to find out what was going on. We even got their “permission” to speak if we were specifically approached. It happened. Some came to ask why we’d stopped going to meetings – so we told them.

  The reaction of some was to get really scared really fast and immediately run for cover. They dug themselves deeper into the organisation where they felt comfortable and safe. But like us, some were deeply disturbed and went off intent on checking things for themselves with an eye on helping us in our foolishness! At least these were sincere and honest. They felt, as we did, that ‘truth’ should have nothing to fear from any scrutiny.

  Many of these people have subsequently left the organisation.

  During this time on the local elders completely ignored us! This ‘ignoring’ even continued during the most difficult period of our lives. One of our sons attempted suicide…three times. He was in hospital for much of the time between February to November 1999. Throughout this whole period not once did any elder contact us. Not in person. Not by letter, or card. Not by phone. Then suddenly, in October 1999, without any warning, they took “official” action against us. They charged us with apostasy and told us a Judicial Committee had been formed. We then became embroiled in what can only be described as a monumental legalistic fiasco – a comedy of errors - that lasted for over a year.

  False charges were made against us. Nasty, vicious rumours were circulated about us personally, and about other members of our family. Judicial meetings were arbitrarily convened. Deception was used to lure us into attending them. We were lied to when we eventually did meet. An attempt was made to disfellowship us on the basis of a false accusation. This was appealed and eventually overturned. New accusations were made, new decisions, further appeals…on and on and on! It seemed to be never-ending.

  At one point a local elder involved the Police. But this backfired on him and the Police finished up issuing a warning against him! Because of the nature of what they were doing I felt it wise to seek legal counsel. By the end of 2000 I had sent dozens of letters. To the elders, to the various committees, and to the Society direct. All this was simply an attempt to be accurate in documenting the whole sorry affair. Our letters and the various replies we got are now a matter of public record. Most of them can be seen on the Internet where there is a thriving community of people who are watching the Watchtower Society keenly - for a variety of reasons!

  Now to the interesting stuff…! The details of my visit to the Romanian TFJW Congress.

  TFJW BACKGROUND:

  There are roughly 5,000 TFJWs - effectively a breakaway group who split off from the main body of JWs after communism fell in 1989. They are made up almost exclusively of eastern Europeans. How did this come about?

  JWs in iron-curtain countries were cut off from the JW headquarters in Brooklyn in the early 60s due to communist oppression and persecution. When communism collapsed in the late 80s they were at last able to re-connect with the JW leadership. They were so shocked to find that the Society had radically changed fundamental doctrines, and because they appeared to be collaborating with “the world”, they concluded that Brooklyn had compromised the “true faith” and become “apostate”. After careful consideration they denounced the JW Governing Body, officially broke their attachment, and adopted the name True Faith Jehovah’s Witnesses.

  They accept JW literature as being doctrinally ‘sound’ from the late 1800s (Charles Taze Russell’s day), right up to 1962. They reject the Society’s output from that year onward. They have reprinted much of the literature from this period, principally the books of “Judge” Rutherford, and now study this material over and over again. They are still structured rather like conventional JWs in terms of organisation. They preach from house-to-house, have full-time preachers (pioneers), and are divided into congregations and circuits as before.

  However, their leadership appears is more accessible than the JW leadership, and they are prepared to have open dialogue with JW dissidents even though they may not agree on doctrinal matters. It must be said that their own ex-members are as critical of them as some ex-JWs are of the JW Governing Body of in Brooklyn! Their critics maintain that they have become even “narrower” in their world-view than conventional JWs. Also, that they are even more legalistic and unbending.

  FIRST CONTACT:

  Whatever the truth of this, the fact is that I had never even heard of this group until the Spring of this year (2001). They’d heard about us though. They knew of our rather public confrontation with the Society and were curious about whether the same thing was happening in the UK as it had in Romania. It was something of a surprise when they contacted me in June.

  Their first call, from Adrian their main interpreter, was rather embarrassing for me. I thought this man with the strange accent was a friend of mine who was fooling around. So I replied in a silly voice and in a way that must have been totally mystifying to him. (Note: Adrian is not one of the TFJWs. He works for one of the leaders and was happy to act on their behalf. He proved to be an excellent man for the job and we became firm friends during my stay. Fortunately he’s got a good sense of humour.)

  He took my silliness in his stride and told me a little about the group, and about the Congress in July. He surprised me by telling me that the leadership had asked if I would consider speaking at the Congress. They’d heard that many JWs were leaving the organisation in Britain, and that they had begun to question some of the fundamental things the Society teach. They were keen for me to go, and I was told I would have a free hand in what I could say. They were anxious to know about the mood of the JW community in England and to hear first hand how we had been treated.

  They told me that delegates from Germany, Russia, Ukraine, Hungary and elsewhere in Eastern Europe would be attending. Also planning to be there were Chris Christensen from Canada, and Richard Rawe from the USA - health permitting - both of whom I knew but had yet to meet. (In the end Richard’s health didn’t permit him to fly, and Chris lost his passport after buying his air ticket which stopped him from going as well.)

  PREPARATION

  My instinct was to accept the invitation and get there at any cost. Some general investigation led to me finding out about the narrowness of their views, but I thought it better to see things for myself rather than pre-judge them.

  However, those who know us personally will know that our circumstances have radically changed since leaving the Witnesses. My two sources of income virtually disappeared overnight. My main income came from a close working relationship I had with an elder who had been a personal friend for nearly thirty years. Our business arrangements had been in place for over six-years. However, in March 2000, some local newspapers ran articles reporting what was happening to us. He rang to ask what was going on. I explained that the situation was not of our making, but a few days later he cancelled his most recent contract and I haven’t heard from him since! The cause and effect here may be unrelated, but the reality of having no further income from this source created major problems for us.

  Fortunately an ex-Witness friend who has since become a Christian, and some other Christians we meet with locally rallied round and paid for my ticket to Romania. Much prayer went into this and at the last minute everything fell neatly into place. Amazingly we got full charity status discount on the ticket. Viva British Airways!

  FLIGHT & ARRIVAL

  The flight was interesting in that I sat next to two rather nervous Romanian Orthodox nuns. (Much crossing of themselves and reading of prayer sheets!) This provided a good opening by which I could raise questions. Shyness made communication a little one sided. This may have been a “nun” thing, or even a “woman” thing, but I did learn a little about Romanian history and culture from one of them. What struck me deeply was her genuine love and affection for her country. This contrasts with the British who are usually quick to knock and criticise their homeland.

  Arrived Bucharest airport 4.00pm Thursday. A small group of TFJWs met me and gave me a very warm and hearty welcome. I was told I would be taken to Cluj Napoca (200km north and 7 hours by car). One of the leaders would drive, and a 17 year-old girl named Rahela (Rachel) would interpret. The drive was remarkable! I nicknamed our fearless driver “Michael Schumakker”, not so much for his driving skill - although we did arrive alive which came as a pleasant surprise - but for his awesome display of being able to defy virtually all the laws of the known universe during our journey…!

  “Michael” was a great chap, and I learnt a lot about TFJWs from him via Rahela who spoke better English than she thought. I enjoyed our drive through the mountains in particular, and the sunset was spectacular. I referred to this when I eventually addressed the Congress. The beauty of creation testifies to the infinitely greater beauty of the Creator. I realised I was going to have to radically re-evaluate my preconceptions about Romania. It was a beautiful country – nothing like I had imagined.

  We arrived in Cluj well after midnight. I met Rahela’s parents, Pavel (Paul) and Maria (Mary), and her younger sister, Sinada, briefly before retiring.

  FRIDAY

  I spent much of the Friday with Rahela discussing further the background and beliefs of TFJWs. Although not yet baptised she was quite knowledgeable and sincere. Her simple childlike love of God and the bible was very touching. When it came to comparing scriptures in our respective Bibles – hers in Romanian and my NIV - she displayed a strong JW tendency to read into the verses more than it actually said. It appeared to be a case of, “Well, I’ve been told that this verse means this, even though is says this!” What was refreshing though, and unlike the disposition of most JWs, was that she was very open when confronted with scriptures she’d never seen before. There wasn’t the dogmatism or confrontation of the usual JW. She was clearly thinking for herself. She said her father would explain everything she didn’t understand.

  When her parents came home Rahela went through everything we had discussed during the day. But before discussing any of this we talked about our respective families and experiences in order to get to know each other better. Pavel had been in prison twice (six-years in total) for his JW faith. I learned a lot and was impressed with the strong faith and sincerity I saw in these people.

  We then discussed some of the issues that had been raised earlier, although I was more interested in what we had in common than in our differences. It became clear that Judge Rutherford’s writings are highly revered. I explained that we were now checking everything against the authority of scripture. We would challenge any belief if it is not clearly taught in scripture, and we would resist any attempt by anyone to try to force their conscience on us. Everyone has a God-given right to exercise conscience without being adversely judged, and without anyone imposing legalistic, pharisaical rules and regulations on them.

  Pavel was concerned about what I might say at the Congress. He was worried it might be controversial. (For example, we had discussed the subject of Jesus death. Did he die on a cross or was it a stake as JWs and TFJWs maintain. Some of the information I presented was new to him and quite disturbing. I assured him I wasn’t there to be deliberately controversial, although some of what I might say may be disturbing. I made it clear that I was not going to come out with some “party line”. Their claim was that they wanted truth, so that’s what they would get form me. Truth as I understand it. (Actually, I had no idea what I was going to say. Prior to leaving England I had determined that I wanted to meet the people, soak up a bit of the atmosphere from the country and culture, and then pray about things before deciding what to say.)

  I think it’s worth mentioning at this point something of the character of my discussions with Pavel, and with the rest of the leadership, during my stay. These were always good natured, courteous, respectful and constructive – both ways! They were also incredibly funny. Language differences added to this, of course, but we really did laugh our socks off (a British expression) the whole time. Although much our of our discussion was on “serious” matters I was determined that this would not sink into mindless confrontational head-butting and.

  TFJWs have very strong views - some that seem fixed and unmoveable - that much was clear. But, unlike my dealings with JWs in the UK at all levels there was a degree of openness to differences of viewpoint and experience. Even when this didn’t fit into their current theology they were at least prepared to talk about it openly and with good humour. And they actually listened! Unlike JWs they did not simply dismiss out of hand things they didn’t understand, or that were out of their experience. I cannot over-emphasise how refreshing and exciting I found this. They really wanted to understand where I was coming from and what I was trying to get across. They gave me genuine respect, and this was poles apart from what I had come to expect from JWs.

  Pavel and his family went to bed around midnight. Cluj is about two hours from T­rgu Mures and we needed to leave at 7:00am. I spent a couple of hours praying and making notes for what to say at the Congress the following day. I probably got to sleep around 3:30am.

  THE JOURNEY

  We collected a couple of families on route, and with about twelve of us in Pavel’s VW “people carrier” we headed off on a pretty spectacular journey. An electrical storm and torrential rain accompanied us the whole way. With only one windscreen wiper on the vehicle there were a few “interesting” moments. (Perhaps my experience with “Michael Schumakker” should have prepared me for this.) Everyone else took it in their stride and I again found comfort in the power of prayer!

  One thing that moved me greatly was the focus of the group as we traveled. They sang! They sang worship songs most of the way. Some were “Kingdom” songs that I knew, but some were obviously from earlier decades from older songbooks. What really surprised me was that they included conventional Christian hymns. It was great to hear them belting out: “My eyes have seen the Glory of the Coming of the Lord… Alleluia, Alleluia…etc.” with unrestrained joy and enthusiasm. . It illustrated to me even more that these people really live their faith. They’re not just paying lip-service to it. (JWs in the UK are, with few exceptions, notoriously terrible singers. They are self-consciousness and reserved. This may have something to do with the national British character, but whatever causes it, it was certainly nice to hear the contrast with the TFJWs.) I joined in heartily.

  They asked me to choose one of my favourite “Kingdom” songs. I felt on safe ground with “Jehovah is My Shepherd” which is simply Psalm 23 set to music. I explained to Rahela, who was still interpreting, how much I have been moved by music and particularly by some of the newer Christian songs I have learned. I sang “My Jesus, My Saviour”, and “The Lord is Gracious and Compassionate” for her, and promised to send some music tapes over when I got back to England.

  The journey was a delight. On reflection it seems their singing had more in common with traditional and even evangelical singing than with their JW heritage. Setting aside content and doctrine, it was good to hear sincere voices raised in worship that had a level of conviction, depth of feeling, and uninhibited passion.

  …to be continued!
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  58

  Anyone heard this? News!

  by Dogpatch in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i reeceived an email today that said:.

  we visited my parents in fl last weekend, and though they're still .

  technically witnesses, they consider themselves double agents.

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  Dogpatch

  I reeceived an email today that said:

  We visited my parents in FL last weekend, and though they're still
  technically Witnesses, they consider themselves double agents.
  They mentioned something to me that I hadn't heard before & I'm sorry, but I don't have source information, but I could call them for it if needed. They said Bethel's letting go 60% of the ones who work on the printing, and that the WT & Awake are going to be turned over to commercial printers. I thought that sounded pretty major, shakeup wise. I hope the "lifers" will be okay, I may not be a Witness anymore, but I do care about the friends still. Anyway,
  I thought I'd mention it, in case you hadn't heard about that.
  ________________

  Anyone heard anything similar?
  Randy Watters

  Net Soup!
  http://www.freeminds.org