Posts by dust

4

whose Father?

by dust in

i have never been a jw, but my parents-in-law are.

i try to keep some kind of topical equilibrium in my dialogue with them, so i thought i'd ask here before i raise the subject: .

a jw would say that only the 144,000 are god's children.

Thank you. So according to the Watchtower all may call God 'Father', but only God's 144,000 children may call him 'Dad'. However, in this perspective Romans 8:11 is rather interesting: Those who have the Spirit (the children), will have their mortal bodies made alive. This sounds more like the bodily 'great crowd on Earth' than the spiritual life of the 144,000 in Heaven, doesn't it?

4

whose Father?

by dust in

i have never been a jw, but my parents-in-law are.

i try to keep some kind of topical equilibrium in my dialogue with them, so i thought i'd ask here before i raise the subject: .

a jw would say that only the 144,000 are god's children.

dust

I have never been a JW, but my parents-in-law are. I try to keep some kind of topical equilibrium in my dialogue with them, so I thought I'd ask here before I raise the subject:
A JW would say that only the 144,000 are God's children. But who can call God 'Father'? Can all JWs call God 'Father', or can only the 144,000 do so?
If, according to a JW, God is everyone's Father, how would the JW relate to what Rom 8:14 and Gal 4:6 say about the reason one calls God 'Father'?

55

The Bastard told on my dad

by Lilycurly in

jw
friends

so...everything had been fine for a while.

i wrote my da letter, very clear and also very surprinsingly "apostate" according to the elders.

so at first, dad does what he's told is right and starts the shunning.

dust

True love is never conditional, agapa. Romans 13. If you feel that to love an "apostate" daughter unconditionally would be a sin, even a mortal sin, then God would probably recognise true love. If God wants us to love, then which love is greater? The one where we are willing to sacrifise ourselves loving our children, or the one where we try to rescue ourselves by shunning them?

17

Court Case in Germany

by GermanXJW in

the website of the german branch says there will be another announcement on march 24th, 2005 in the court case that has been lasting for more than a decade now in which they try get granted the status of a public body.

.

i will keep you informed.

dust

GermanXJW,
Could you provide us with a link to a report in any online newspaper about Klaus Vater and what he said? I'd be happy to read it in German, and plan to mention it to my JW father-in-law, who knows that I'm concerned with things happening in Germany. Thanks.

46

Agnostic or Atheist?

by done4good in

for all of you non-religionists out there: do you consider yourself an agnostic or atheist, and why?

it seems many ex-jws that "loose the faith" have a tendency to go straight for atheism.

i myself, would consider myself more of an agnostic, as i believe we have no real way of knowing if there is a god one way or the other, and it tends to seem just as extreme to me, to insist that there is not one.

dust

Startingover, I found your article brilliant. And thanks a lot for pointing out that atheism is not a "stand" where the "obviously existing" God is rejected (it's just the absence of believing anything that hasn't been proved to exist), and where we're all in lack of moral and human feelings. That stigma has hurt a few times during the years.

I've never been a JW myself (I'm married to an ex-JW who disassociated herself to be with me), and I've called myself an atheist for quite a few years (since I was 16). Still, I feel that I "belong with God", and it was my wish that we marry in the church. Some people say that I am probably a Christian, because I feel the way I do, and belief is an emotion, not a knowledge. In fact, I never feel as close to God as after I've just spoken with a JW. And at the same time they make me feel very confident that the church is right. ;)

I still call myself an atheist, but I do pray to God and ask him to look after both my wife and my JW in-laws. It's no wonder people get confused when they talk to me about such matters. I too get confused. So I'm not really sure whether I should call myself an atheist any more.

But if I'm in doubt as to whether I should call myself an atheist (non-believer) or a theist (believer, in my case: Christian), then I... well.. then I don't know (a-gnosis). May I call myself an agnostic? Because I don't _know_ whether I _believe_ or not? :)

31

Got any quick 1914 / 607 points?

by drew sagan in

tomarrow i'm meeting with a jw friend who is connected to what's going on with these elders that came over our house and everything else.

i can't get into details as to how it works out, but this is the important part.

this guy (and elder) can be a quite reasonable person.

dust

Maybe this could be of interest: http://www.witforjesus.org/jehovahs_witness/online/wdgr/wdgr_s02q01.php
(But it's not "quick and easy".)

18

Mama's Boys

by Thegoodgirl in

question: are you dealing with a mama's boy?.

i am afraid i am.

my hubby is on the phone with this parents (actually mostly his dad) for about an hour each night.

dust

Tell him that you love him, but that this hurts you, even though you know he doesn't mean to hurt you. Because that's the truth, isn't it?
Anyhow, as a man I know that men understand such things better if they are _told_ to us. We don't take hints as well as women do. :)

13

advice please

by miller in

i am not a jw and never have been.

actually i only just discovered what it really means to be a witness.

i grew up thinking it all rather harmless door-knocking and not having christmas, (which seemed pretty grim to a kid in itself) now, however, i have begun a relationship with a jw, well, an 'inactive' (i think you say) witness.

dust

One more thing...
Even if your boy-friend will become able to identify himself and his feelings as those of a non-witness, you _will_ experience problems with his family, no matter how caring and loving they may be as persons. My parents-in-law didn't attend our wedding (we missed them, but don't want to hold it against them, because we know it was very sad for them not to be there), and we have been asked not to visit them unless some very special situation arises. Some of their comments can hurt, even though we know they don't mean to hurt us.
But this difficult situation has only made my wife and me realise even more how much we love eachother. I tell her occationally: "Imagine, you actually chose _me_ over _them_." And she replies: "You know, it's you I want to spend my life with."
I have gotten to know my parents-in-law, and they have learnt to appreciate me as one that they think is both caring, respectful and loving. I am glad they got that impression of me. Right before we got married, I wrote them a letter stating that I disagree with how they read the Bible, and I told them exactly why. But then I added that I want them to follow their conscience. If they felt that attending the wedding would be disobedience towards God, then I would defend their not attending it. Because no matter what God really means about the matter, if they attended the wedding despite their (false) beliefs about God's will, then they would act on the will to be disobedient. And that's not a good thing for a human.
And as we discovered, this was perhaps the best thing I could tell them. They really need to feel that we respect their feelings, and that we don't condemn them. I don't try to hide from them how I feel about the matter, but I try to do it in a respecting manner, so that they are accessible for questions, and so that they may _understand_ my objections. I've told them that I want to understand them, so I have to ask in different ways until I feel that I have received an answer. But then I also add that I want them to understand me as well, so that they can understand why I have the questions that I have. Cause that will make it easier for them to answer in a way that I can understand. (Of course, this implies that they have to think on their own at times.)

13

advice please

by miller in

i am not a jw and never have been.

actually i only just discovered what it really means to be a witness.

i grew up thinking it all rather harmless door-knocking and not having christmas, (which seemed pretty grim to a kid in itself) now, however, i have begun a relationship with a jw, well, an 'inactive' (i think you say) witness.

dust

I was in your situation a few years ago when I met my girl-friend (now my wife). I was terrified. But I told her about my fears, I was dead honest. I told her I was terrified that she would "take Christmas away" from me. I had never really _celebrated_ Christmas, it had only been a holyday, but now I started getting afraid, discovering what Christmas actually meant to me (I had to learn quite a bit about myself!). So I was honest to her, and she was honest to me. And we were able to talk and discover that we really wanted to be together, no matter which difficulties we would meet. We are two _very_ stubborn persons. ;)

I had quite a few problems with the WT teachings, and I tried to "win" her by asking questions and reasoning. At first she couldn't stand it. First, she was not used to independent thinking! But also, this had to do with her entire life till then. She felt that I "trod on her life". This was her identity, even though she didn't consider herself a witness anymore. So once again I was dead honest and told her that I didn't know what to do, I needed her own advice. After thinking a bit she said that I could just continue asking her about things. It was hard on her, but she felt that she needed to learn how to think on her own.

Of course, this is my girl-friend, not your boy-friend, and people are different. :) But honesty, even about fears, is probably one of the main pillars of every lasting relationship.

For quite a long time (several years) it was difficult for my wife to talk about religious issues, and even when she had decided (on her own! very important!) that the WT teachings are false, she felt that in reality she did not love God. "Why do you think that you don't love God?" I asked. "Because I have disassociated myself." I told her that I know her, and that I feel that the loves God. She doesn't love him in the WT way, but if God exists, then he knows what I know: that she does not hate God, she has only left an organisation that she even felt did not represent God.

Of course, as humans we will often experience such gaps between rationality ("I know that I don't feel the organisation represents God") and emotions ("I left the org, so I must have left God, cause the org says I did"). It is possible that support and love is the best cure in such situations, whether we're dealing with an ex-witness or a completely different situation.

So love and humble honesty would be my prescription.

I could also mention that when I first met her parents, they showed themself to be two extremely cute and loving persons. But they were of course also terrified because their daughter had met a worldly guy. So the very first evening they started evangelizing. It went so far that my girl-friend got ashamed of her parents... Note, the important thing here was not the topic of the discussion, but the fact that she loved me, and felt that her parents treated me poorly and with disrespect. (And let me add that despite all this trouble then and later, my parents-in-law are still two of the cutest and most loving persons that I have ever met. We can't visit them as often as we would like to, due to her being an ex-witness, but we love them, and know that they are the ones that suffer the most.)

So all in all: Just be honest, ask him for advice, ask him how he feels. Love eachother through all problems that may arise in your relationship, and remember that as long as you have eachother, that is the most important thing.

113

if an atheist does something good...

by DannyBloem in

.

if an atheist leads good life with high moral standards, because he choice to do so and thinks for logic it is a good thing, does it not mean much more then when a theist does the same, because his gods tells him to do it?

what's your thoughs on this?

dust

Atheists are just as diverse as Christians. They may have an instinctive urge to be good. They are not any more calculating than others. We are all humans, whether we are Christians, atheists or anything else... Romans 2:12-16: 12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15 since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them. 16 This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.