So... doing Bible research and learning Greek would be just as silly as genealogy research (Sept KM). The question whether snakes had legs is much more important.
Posts by dust
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39Snakes had legs until Eden curse! Watchtower 1880 till 1974!!!
by Witness 007 inoften flicking through watchtower bound volumes i would see pictures of eden which shows the snake in the tree of knowledge with legs??
even the photo drama of creation shows a snake with legs.. watchtower 1964 p.352 "genisis 3;14 {snake}on your belly you will go and dust you shall eat...before god curse it the snake had legs, that elivated it above the ground...god transformed it's body so that it ceased to have legs and was able to move on it's belly.".
god's eternal purpose 1974 "god did not put a curse on the whole serpent family...it had only been victimized by satan.. forrest gump watchtower science is price-less!.
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25
JW Science Quote Of The Day 9-3
by TD injw science blunders arent always the result of misunderstanding the working principles of the phenomenon being discussed.
sometimes theyre simply the result of not properly researching a secular quote that dovetails with the worldview of the jw leadership.
todays jw science quote of the day is a good example: .
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dust
We could add that in this case the error was just copied from the NY Times. The quote is actually accurate:
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?sec=health&res=9E0CE4DC1438F93AA15752C1A964958260
Nevertheless it does illustrate that the writers are only humans. -
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Suicide the bible's view
by jeanne40love inhow does the bible view suicide?.
a few acquaintances of mine in the "truth" committed suicide and when the memorial talks were given, they were handled very differently.
at one hall the brother (ms) who took his life....his life was celebrated....there was comfort for everyone.
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dust
A JC? Now, that would be like... Well... "So, you suffer from something potentially lethal? We don't like that. If you don't stop suffering from it, we'll have to disfellowship you, so you'll understand how much we love you."
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Suicide the bible's view
by jeanne40love inhow does the bible view suicide?.
a few acquaintances of mine in the "truth" committed suicide and when the memorial talks were given, they were handled very differently.
at one hall the brother (ms) who took his life....his life was celebrated....there was comfort for everyone.
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dust
Eclipse,
You say that you "respectfully disagree" with my statement. A reason for the disagreement may be that my native language is not English, and that it is a little difficult to find the right words. So let me state that I fully agree with the way you put it. :)
And also, please do not misunderstand what I meant when I wrote "(mental) illness". I thought of "illness" in the broad sense. I mean, when the pain or disorder -- whether the pain/disorder is physical or mental -- deprives someone of the resources needed to live, then it should not be a surprise (and absolutely not to be condemned) if life actually stops. "Illness" is probably a too specific word.
I totally agree with everything you wrote. And it is important to empasize that "most people who have commited suicide are normal people", and that "you are not a bad person, or crazy, or weak, or flawed, because you feel suicidal". What I meant to do, was to compare the causes of suicide to the causes of non-suicidal death, but you expressed it better when you wrote quite simply: "Willpower has nothing to do with it."
respectfully agreeing,
dust -
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Suicide the bible's view
by jeanne40love inhow does the bible view suicide?.
a few acquaintances of mine in the "truth" committed suicide and when the memorial talks were given, they were handled very differently.
at one hall the brother (ms) who took his life....his life was celebrated....there was comfort for everyone.
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dust
Suicide is most often the result of (mental) illness. When people die as a result of illness, there is little condemnation among people, with the strange exception of suicide...
A Norwegian retired bishop (Lutheran), Sigurd Oseberg, blogged about suicide half a year ago. In his own followup (http://www.dagbladet.no/weblogg/blog.php/psigurdo/post/17683) he writes (my translation):
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Thanks to those of you who have commented on my two blog posts on suicide.
One of you writes: "One cannot be blamed for feeling that life is pointless and not worth living." I agree. It is a fact that some people feel that their life has lost its meaning, without their being responsible for this. The future appears as a burden too heavy to bear. Some feel that life is so meaningless that they even think it would be a relief for people around them if they die.
When humans feel like this, they don't need anyone to wag their finger at them. They need fellow human beings who do all they can to give meaning to their life, without expecting anyting in return.
One of you writes: "The church, I reckon, has played a major role in the condemnation of suicide." Early in the history of the church, suicide was considered a serious sin. God gave us life, therefore only Gud can reclaim it. Thomas of Aquino said that suicide is the greatest of all sins because the one who kills himself murders both body and soul. Augustine understood suicide as a sin against the fifth commandment "you shall not kill". But neither in the Old nor in the New Testament do we find statements that explicitly disapprove of suicide. There are reports about suicide in the Bible (1 Sam 31:4, 2 Sam 17:23, 1 Kings 16:18) but nothing condemning is said about the act. And when the New Testament tells about the suicide of Judas (Mt 27:5), this act is not characterised as Judas' sin. The sin was betraying Jesus for thirty silver coins.
But the church early interpreted the fifth commandment "you shall not kill" also as a ban on suicide. Martin Luther interprets this commandment as being about our relationship to our neighbour [fellow human], and he doesn't mention suicide. This does not imply that he didn't condemn suicide as the church generally did. And the concequence for those who killed themselves was that they couldn't demand that the curch be engaged in the funeral, and they were not buried in concecrated earth.
Today the church thinks differently, even though it does not consider suicide to be ethically neutral. The dominant focus of the church is that humans should have a better future. The church is occupied with prevention of suicide, both through the ordinary congregational service and the service of clergymen and deacons, but also in particular preventive undertakings.
In this respect it is focused not only on the potential "suicidal candidate", but also on what can be done in order for the person's environment to become so supportive that the person finds it meaningful to live. It is difficult to convince depressed, suicidal humans abouth this. The Russian author Vladimir Majakovsky (1893-1930), who committed suicide, wrote: "In this life it is not difficult to die, it is more difficult to live."
The curch's task is primarily to give humans hope, not only after death but also in life.
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Those were the words of the bishop. Perhaps some of them answer (parts of) your question. -
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I'm Worshipping Satan Now.....
by R.F. in.....according to my father.. he decided to talk to me today about my meeting attendance.
i haven't been to one in 3 months by the way.
so he goes on to give me the usual.."you know where you're supposed to be 3 times a week"......."you're not taking full advantage of jehovah's provisions"....."you shouldn't let anyone discourage you to the point of missing meetings"....that type of stuff.. he then went on to say that if you aren't taking full advantage of what jehovah provides then you're worshipping satan instead of jehovah.
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dust
So you are worshipping Satan... I would direct your father to Rom 14 and let him read the entire chapter. Then ask him to read verses 1-10 and 22-23 again.
The essence of the verses is: Do not judge others or yourself based on what they or you believe. Noone answers to anyone else than God. The important thing is not _what_ you do, but that you do it according to your faith. Still, even those with a weak faith are welcome. (Does your father or the WTS welcome people based on their acting according to their belief, or do they demand that they act and believe in a certain way?)
I would not dare to claim to anyone that "you are the one that Jesus speaks of in Matthew 7:21-23". Would your father dare to claim "I am with those ho say Lord, Lord, and I am with those who perform many powerful works in his name, so those verses aren't about me"?
Why then, does he have the courage to declare, on the basis of your beliefs, that you are more or less a despicable fool? Who does he answer to when declaring this? (Ask him to read Matthew 5:22.) -
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Where's the Great Crowd?
by Mrs. Witness insorry if this has been discussed ad nauseum, but i'm at work and don't have time to search...i'm having a discussion (argument) with my jw hubby about the location of the great crowd.
we've looked at rev.
4 through 7 and he agrees with me that everything is in heaven "before the throne" until we get to the great crowd... does anyone have any easy-to-understand comments on this subject?
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dust
Yes, we all know that there is no link. But tell that to a Witness. We could just as well ask the Witness what Rev 19:1 says. :)
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Where's the Great Crowd?
by Mrs. Witness insorry if this has been discussed ad nauseum, but i'm at work and don't have time to search...i'm having a discussion (argument) with my jw hubby about the location of the great crowd.
we've looked at rev.
4 through 7 and he agrees with me that everything is in heaven "before the throne" until we get to the great crowd... does anyone have any easy-to-understand comments on this subject?
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dust
The more popular question "where is the great crowd" has been discussed quite a lot, and even the Bible tried to say a few words about it (Rev 19:1, great crowd in heaven).
But I am more interested in the little flock. Where is the little flock?
I must admit that when I read Rev 7 a few years ago, I never found the difference betweeen the great crowd and the 144,000. There, John first hears about 144,000 persons, and right afterwards he sees a great crowd that he is not able to count.
Now, if I saw 144,000 persons, would I be able to count them? How would you interpret me if I told you this story:
"My neighbour came running towards me shouting that 144,000 angry women wanted to kill him. He ran inside and locked his door. The next moment I saw a great crowd of angry women, they were so many that I couldn't count them."
Would you assume that there is a great crowd of angry women + a small flock of "only" 144,000?
Even more confusing:
Rev 7:9-13 (the great crowd washed their robes)
Rev 22:14 (incidentally, those who washed their robes are allowed into the heavenly city, which by the way is a great cube: Rev 21:16)
Rev 7:3-4 (God has 144 000 slaves)
Rev 7:15 (now it's the great crowd that serves God)
OK, I have been told that the little flock is actually mentioned in the Bible, in Luke 12:32. So if there is a great crowd in Rev and a little flock in Luke, then the little flock in Luke should be found also in Rev, though not in any other book, only in Luke and Rev. And in Rev the little flock of Luke should be identical to the 144 000 that John is told about right before he sees a lot of people.
Why? Because a great crowd is mentioned. So the only candidate for the "little flock" role would be the 144,000. And yes, there has to be a little flock in Rev because it is mentioned in Luke and because there is a connection between the books. And there is a connection because Luke mentions "little flock" while Rev does not.
I read Luke 12:32 too. In Luke 12:32, Jesus is talking to his disciples. Does this mean that Jesus has 144,000 discipels, or would it be awkward to make that connection between Luke 12 and Rev 7?
John 10:16 has also been mentioned to me: "And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold". Strange, I thought, why don't they quote the rest of the verse? "those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd." What? Only one flock? If there are many sheep and they become one flock, will that flock be small or great...?
Let's forget about the hieron/naos thing and leave that to others: http://www.xjw.com/where.html
I just want to ask:
Where is that little flock? I mean, where in the Bible? -
63
Scream when Raped...
by KW13 inthought i'd bring this up again, i found it on the watchtower library and thought it was extremely annoying how they can say rubbish like this.. rape has become increasingly common today.
a major reason seems obvious.
sex and violence explode from tv and movie screens, from radio, newspapers, magazines and billboards.
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dust
Rape is violence.
When someone is raped, she (or even he -- there are also male victims) is in an extreme situation. It is not always easy to think (or act) rationally in extreme situations. There are those who are paralysed by the situation. There are those who even try to console the rapist by reflex. We all have an "autopilot" that can be activated in extreme situations. Also during a rape, the "autopilot" can be activated, and the victim survives, only to be told afterwards that she (he) "should have done this or that accordig to scripture such and such".
The statistics show that most rapes are performed by friends/husbands/boyfriends, i.e. people you trust. That makes the situation even more extreme, as a cruel violation of intimate trust.
Compare it with being suddenly knocked out on the pavement. We would never demand that "well, you shouldn't have fainted, and even if you fainted, you should have fought back". But people do actually demand this from rape victims. It makes me sick.
Sorry, I just had to write it down. -
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Dilemma - What can I offer my wife if she leaves the witnesses?
by truthseeker inthis week, my wife called me an "opposing husband" - because i stopped believing that jehovah chose the watchtower society as his sole channel on earth.. .
my wife knows about the society, it's flip-flop on doctrines, child sex abuse scandals, including the un, but none of that matters.. .
she doesn't read the litertaure, not even the bible.. .
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dust
This isn't about convincing or not convincing your wife about the WTS. It is about being able to communicate and respect eachother. If I were in your situation, then I would have suggested marriage councelling by a professional who knows something about psychology and communication.
I am not saying that anyone of you is to blame for anything. But perhaps you both need to become aware of how the other one feels.
An alternative to councelling could be a book (read it together!) like Gary Chapman's "The Five Love Languages". My wife and I read it, not because of problems but because we wanted to learn. And it proved very helpful, we even learnt things that we didn't know we needed to learn about communication. Before we read the book, we felt that we already communicated well. After we read it, we had learnt much more about how both "I" and "the other one" communicates. One gets to ask oneself quite a lot of questions.
http://www.amazon.com/Five-Love-Languages-Heartfelt-Commitment/dp/1881273156/
I'm not saying that a book like this will solve your problems. But it can be a start, and it can be valuable in itself, even to improve what is already good.