SATANS LITTLE HELPER SAID:..."I notice that you haven't replied to my last post, that is because you have no argument, other than to repeat the same incorrect beliefs without proof over and over again. You have had your ass handed to you on a plate, you lose. Just an aside, your preoccupation with spanking is something you should really discuss with a therapist.
But just because he will come back whining again, I will POST IT AGAIN.
1- Everything which has a beginning has a cause. This an understood and accepted principle in human civilizations throughout the earth. If it had a beginning, then somebody or something made it. Fairly simple. The computers each of us are using at this moment had to be made by somebody. Mine was made by Apple, for example. But if there were no name mentioned at all, we still know that somebody had to make it. Design begets a designer.
2- The Universe, including our earth (and all life upon the earth) had a beginning. Most scientists believe in the 'Big Bang" theory. While omitting God altogether, the common belief is that it did have a definite beginning and is still developing and expanding.
3- Therefore, the Universe, that had a beginning, must also have a Cause. That Cause, in my opinion is God.
4-The bible, in my opinion, is a reliable source of information. It claims to be authored by God. There is an abundance of evidence that it could be authored by God. As briefly listed on another thread (now defunct) here is a very short list of reasons why I believe the bible is from God and thus a reliable, trustworthy source of information today:
"For me, the idea that all four of gospel writers just made up these accounts about Jesus Christ is not something I quickly buy into. The way they claim to have changed their lives, leaving many significant occupations and other personal things behind, leads me to believe they sure found something powerfully persuasive in this person called Christ. They also admit their mistakes which only adds to their credibility in my mind. Likewise the bible writer Paul; he certainly had something dramatic happen to him. He claims to have had a vision of Christ himself, became blind, went to Ananias as instructed and received his sight back. Then completely changed his direction from a persecutor of Christians to becoming an ardent member, one of the foremost of the apostles actually, spearheading the preaching of Christ to the Gentiles. The apostles did not even trust or believe him initially, which again, only adds to the believability in my opinion. I guess all of these writers could have just made these things up. That is possible. But it is also possible they happened just as were written. And if so, then we have some very interesting events taking place that would support Jesus' claim to be God's son, representing God himself. And if so, then what he says about God, about the earth, the future, life... can be and should be seriously considered. I would consider such a source as very reliable. Very trustworthy, *IF* these accounts about him are true.
The many prophecies written that had exact fulfillments adds ever more weight to possibility of the bible being more than just some good book. The bible's statement that the earth is round, and that it hangs upon nothing, though men at that time believed the earth was flat, again adds value to the claim that it is from a higher source than men. Are all of these just mere coincidences? It is possible, I guess. But it's also possible that these facts give evidence that the source of these prophecies and scientific accuracies is from a much higher source than humans, who cannot predict the future with any kind of certainty. There are not only a couple of such prophecies, but literally hundreds which exact, detailed fulfillment.
There is secular testimony as well, that Christ did exist and did perform miraculous events. The calendar we use today is based on the very year he was born. Just a coincidence? A person that really did not exist at all, or whose accomplishments were greatly exaggerated? Possible, I guess. But possibly not. The scriptures contain numerous accounts of miracles where people were brought back to life, sick and dying were healed, people were miraculously fed whether from food falling out of the sky or a few fishes feeding thousands, olive oil and bread jars that never ran out and other examples. Sea's were parted, were walked on and calmed down upon commands. You do not hear stories like this today, with hundreds of eye-witnesses to collaborate. This collection of books is available in over 2000 languages today. It the worlds best selling book of all time. The information contained is also very practical for those that wish to believe it and apply it. The Golden Rule for example. Children obeying their parents is another. Husbands loving their wives as their own bodies makes good marriages even better. And answer when mild turns away rage is a proven valuable principle in life. Jesus sermon on the mount in Matthew chapters 5-7 is still considered by many to be the greatest speech ever given. Priceless gems for many.
Is it possible then that this bible is from God? I believe it is possible, and even very probable. If so, if it is from God himself, then the very question as to how life arrived is answered. Because it also tells the reader that God himself made these things that we see today. No soup-like conditions that somehow evolved into the beautiful yet complex systems we see surrounding us today. It answers many of man's perplexing questions. Does it answer everything? No, it does not. Yet it does say there are new scrolls to be opened. It talks about everlasting life being possible for those that believe and apply God's sons teachings in his life. A life where death and pain and mourning are things of the past. Not the kind of life we see today. It promises these things we see causing pain and death and heartaches will be done away completely and permanently. That is a beautiful hope. Many other answers, too many to list here are given as well. If the bible is true then, the human race has much to look forward to.
For me, it does make sense. It does offer hope. It is worth putting my trust in. It does offer answers as well as a good measure of comfort. It is believable."
5- The bible tells us that God had NO beginning.
Psalm 90:2 ...Even from time indefinite to time indefinite you are God.
psalm 93:2... You are from time indefinite to time indefinite.
Isaiah 57:15 ....God is ‘the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity’
Revelation 15:3 ...righteous and true are your ways, King of Eternity.Revelation 15:3 ...righteous and true are your ways, King of Eternity.
If the bible is inspired of God (as I have sound reason to believe, by the reasons posted above), and if what it says is true that God had No Beginning, where then is the need for a Cause or designer? This is perhaps the crux of my argument then; NOBODY created God, because according inspired scripture, God had no beginning, hence eliminating the need for a cause altogether. This is the only example, the one sole instance where this principle would apply. All other features of the universe including the earth as well as all life on the earth, the spirit world and anything else anywhere, had a beginning and thus demands a cause. God, the intelligent designer himself, exclusively, is this one sole exception.
No human beings were there in the beginning of the universe to witness what exactly happened. Brilliant minds today can only guess and try to formulate theories. The bible says pointedly: "In the Beginning God Created the heavens and the earth". There is sound and reasonable reasons to believe, as many (including some of the most intellectual minds ever born) in Creation. That all life as we know it today was deigned by the only one who is not subject to time, the only one that never had a beginning. The only one that is not confined by space and bound by physical laws. Laws in which he created and therefore would not be subject to. None of which here is a stretch to either grasp, believe or understand. It makes sense to me. It is believable, logical and reasonable.
Some like to suggest, "well you cannot prove this, so you really cannot say with any certainty that you believe this". And for those that do feel this way, I disagree. I should add, I "respectfully" disagree. I have no problems with others that feel differently than I. But I can believe and do believe in the existence of God, through more than just faith itself. Though faith is an integral part of this equation too. In fact it is needed to a degree. But there is also EVIDENCE, logical PROOF that an Intelligent Designer is responsible for all features of life today. Complex, intelligent, purposeful systems that reflect the intellect of that designer himself. There are numerous court cases that have gone to trial where all of the evidence is circumstantial. Perhaps no body has been found. Still, today's technology now allows trace evidences and other signs to give very convincing testimony that a crime was committed. Juries have been thoroughly and unitedly and fully convinced to convict criminals based on such outside, circumstantial evidence exclusively. Likewise then, there are numerous "evidences" that all life arrived due to the hand of a Master Designer. The complexity and uniformity, the order and structure, the harmony of system after system, feature after feature, from the smallest molecules to the incredible living breathing life forces surrounding us all, to the incredibly complex earth where so many systems are just perfectly balanced all working together to allow life to exist are evidences to me that somebody surely must be responsible. The far more complex, far more powerful and awe inspiring universe with star after star, planet after planet solar system after solar system all beautifully organized, with inconceivable, unimaginable amounts of power and energy, give further testimony, in my mind, that these things did not just "happen" through some unguided series of accidents. Just some fortuitous combination of circumstances. A blind fluke of good fortune?
As Einstein astutely stated, "God does not play dice with the universe". So though we cannot see God, we can see EVIDENCE that he does indeed exist. Just as we cannot see our own brains or gravity, or oxygen etc... the evidence that these things are nonetheless real is overwhelming. For myself then, evidence that God exists is even more powerful. The evidence supports this belief for me.
After an examination of much evidence, I am 100 percent certain that these things surrounding us are the result of a Superior Designer. In my mind and in my sincere opinion God DOES exist. And He is responsible for my being here right now. I owe him the gratitude he so deserves. I thank him for letting me live and exist. Sure I am also here because my mother and father married, had intimate relations and I was born. But that process in itself is so complex, such an outstanding system of design that, for me, the credit rightfully goes to the Creator himself. This is why HE deserves the credit; my parents had me because a masterful designer created this process called REPRODUCTION. In fact there was very little on their part, to be truthful. He is worthy of worship in my mind. My questions as to how life arose are answered.
Now satans little helper, I have answered your questions. It is time for you to answer mine.
Please tell those following this thread just how these very complicated systems in the universe and the earth, along with all life forms upon the earth ORIGINATED. Just how did they START? If Science cannot create life, from non-living matter, in a controlled, scientific environment, nor give life BACK to a dead person or animal (though having all the parts needed right in front of them), then how could all these very things come to exist without ANY intellectual force behind them at all? Just FELL into place?
Posts by Vinny
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Vinny
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Vinny
Undecided says:..."If God really made everything why is there so much that causes suffering, if he is such a good God? Earthquakes, tornados, volcanos, lightning, hurricanes, so many sicknesses for animals, humans and plant life caused by created viruses, bacteria, parasites etc.???? Everything is not so beautiful on this earth. Old age isn't so much fun either." Ken P.
In support of this, James Chapter 1:2-4 tells the reader, "to consider it all joy when you meet with various trials, knowing that this tested quality of your faith works out endurance. But let endurance have its work complete, that YOU may be complete and sound in all respects, not lacking in anything." -
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Vinny
TROUNCE TIME AGAIN
There is just no way that it is even remotely possible that ALL of those marvelous features coming together at one time is due to a series of random, evolutionary, unguided chances. When I look at an incredible startlit sky, in my mind there is not a chance that these all happened to be formed by a similar series of just aimless, arbitrary, haphazard, hit-or-miss events; a rolling of the dice if you will. They are extremely organized. They have clearly been PUT there and brought into motion by SOMEBODY.
Folks, this is one reason why the internet is so coooool, everything that is being said, is in PRINT. Just reading what our little atheists have to say is LAUGHABLE here. I feel sorry for them. Seriously. Poor little atheists. They are completely stuck in mud with their beliefs.
I have asked our little atheists to explain just how "DEAD MATTER" turns into "LIVING THINGS". Now read the thread, all of it folks. A lot of comments have been posted. After all of these written posts, THIS IS ALL that the little atheists could come up with in answer to how dead matter turns into living things: -
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Vinny
I see hilary showed up for a second.
Did hilary reply to his being buried?
NOPE
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Vinny
Odrade did win two Oscars for the most lame replies on two different threads. I guess that deserves some extra attention for her tonight.
http://www.friesian.com/spinoza.htm
Just google Spinoza's God if you do not know what that means.
"5- Alan F, what does it say to YOU when people such as Einstein, Copernicus, Sir Francis Bacon, Johannes Kepler, Galileo, Descartes, Newton, Boyle, Faraday, Mendel, Kelvin, Max Planck, and thousands of others scientists, philosophers, leaders such as Ghandi, MLK, every single President elected and many other successful people as well as BILLIONS of others believe in a Supreme Intelligent Designer and REJECT ATHEISM OUTRIGHT."
**** Sorry, but YOU are wrong Odrade. Here are just a few quotes Einstein made:
“My position concerning God is that of an agnostic. I am convinced that a vivid consciousness of the primary importance of moral principles for the betterment and ennoblement of life does not need the idea of a law-giver, especially a law-giver who works on the basis of reward and punishment.”
Albert Einstein in a letter to M. Berkowitz, October 25, 1950; Einstein Archive 59-215; from Alice Calaprice, ed., The Expanded Quotable Einstein, Princeton, New Jersey: Princeton University Press, 2000, p. 216.
pantheism |'pan?e?iz?m| |?pøn?i'?z?m| |?pan?i??z(?)m|
noun
1 a doctrine that identifies God with the universe, or regards the universe as a manifestation of God.
2 rare worship that admits or tolerates all gods.
*****Like I said, do the math. Einstein KNEW all these incredible features did not just come to exist on their own.
And just WHAT IS an Atheist, which Einstein himself CLARIFIED, (in print) that he was NOT?
atheism: noun (the theory or belief that God does not exist).
Einstein DID NOT believe in Atheism. Atheism is the belief that God does NOT EXIST. Wake up Terry and smell the coffee. You seem to strike out quite a bit lately.
Memory refreshed again?
(Love ya though... and you do have two Oscars from me to prove it).
It's abaddon, Odrade's competitor for the oscar of lame replies this time.
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Vinny
Lookey folks who came to visit:
My fav person on JWD.
RIGHT HERE: -
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For all dog owners...need some advice!!!! (Fluffy thread)
by restrangled ini have 2 ...105 pound plus dobermans who are absolute gentleman in the house and backyard.
if someone comes into the house they are sniffy but will immediately behave as requested.
(i adopted them 1 year ago).
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Vinny
"Have you ever heard dogs "groan with happiness?"
***** Dobies are known for this. My neighbor (current JW elder, who would ride with me and all our dogs until I left the JW's last year) breeds and sell them for $1000 a pup. They ALL do the groaniong and yelping bit when we rode.
VERY INTELLIGENT BREED. Border Collies are considered the smartest breed in doggy kingdom. But Mischa (dobie) is sharp as a tack and probably smarter than the BC.
Sadly though, she can be a bed wetter...
Can't win em all
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For all dog owners...need some advice!!!! (Fluffy thread)
by restrangled ini have 2 ...105 pound plus dobermans who are absolute gentleman in the house and backyard.
if someone comes into the house they are sniffy but will immediately behave as requested.
(i adopted them 1 year ago).
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Vinny
I have a Dobie (3 yrs old now) who had similar issues not only with other dogs, but also with people. That was not good. What I did (as Caesar "the man" would suggest) was to take het to public places where many people and other dogs would be. I would always have her on a leash. I would also park the pickup truck right at the entrance of the local safeway shopping center. She would literally see hundreds of people walk right on by in just a few minutes.
My son also works at the humane society where they have a doggie park. Surrounding her with other dogs and people does the trick.
I still carry a leash with me though rarely use it. But she is a Doberman, and sometimes just the sight of her can scare other people.
I also have a four year old Border Collie and a two year old black mutt. The three of them have made leaving WT-world so much easier. The Dobie and the mutt ALWAYS make me laugh. They play and play and play...
That's the life. -
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Vinny
Thanks!!
We can pass the love around then.
Afterall, whether atheist, agnostic, bible thumping fundie (heh), we all were part of Watchtower World at one time.
And most are suffereing some significant consequences because of it.
And THAT is quite a lot in common!
vinny -
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Vinny
I quit my dream of playing professional sports one day when my bible study conductor elder dropped off a WT article on the bad idea of playing organized sports. It was a long shot, but I was playing on a semi professional football team in Virginia as a running back, with hopes of going into some professional level. Canadian League or World football was around then too. I was getting closer to that life-long goal. Had worked hard at it for two years since my teenage years were spent partying and dropping out of school.
My conductor was very clear how I would lose out on LIFE because the influence in organized sports was so bad, plus I would miss the "vital meetings". I fell for it all, hook, line and sinker.
What was worse though was that none of my three kids would ever play any kind of organized sports. Instead we went to meetings and field service on weekends and often after school. We also pulled them all out of the public school system. Very sheltered lives now that we look back on it.
They really missed out on too much.
Giving up holidays was also a big step backwards. Even during the single, partying years we loved the Christmas spirit.
(Though for the first time since being marrried, my wife and I went driving around Christmas Eve taking pics of all the Christmas lights and even stopped for a Mai tai....
That was fun.