Posts by Pahpa

33

The Seven Churches

by Pahpa in

here is a point to ponder:.

when john was instructed to write letters to the seven churches (rev.

1 - 3) as to "what is now and what will take place" (1:19) why were not the members of those bad churches advised "get out of her, my people?

Times are certainly bad. But I thought the same when I first became associated with the Watchtower in the early 1950s. The Korean War was raging, the world was divided between the communist and democratic nations and world disasters such as earthquakes and famines convinced me that Jehovah's Witnesses were correct.

However, 50 years later, things have become much worse. The point is that each generation of Jehovah's Witnesses and Bible Students thought their time was the "end time." None could imagine that 50 years would pass without the prophecies being fulfilled. But it was all relative. Generations of Jehovah's Witnesses and Bible Students have come and gone without seeing the fulfillment of their expectations.

While I'm convinced that we're seeing the "end" of something, I'm no longer convinced that we are in the "end times" of Bible prophecy. The best advice we have is to remain faithful regardless of what time we're living in...

33

The Seven Churches

by Pahpa in

here is a point to ponder:.

when john was instructed to write letters to the seven churches (rev.

1 - 3) as to "what is now and what will take place" (1:19) why were not the members of those bad churches advised "get out of her, my people?

Pahpa

Narkissos/ Leolaia:

Yes, as a former JW I'm certainly aware of "failed prophecies." But do I understand that you feel that these same prophecies spoken by Jesus are in the same category? Doesn't the very context of Jesus' words indicate that in spite of the expectations of his followers many historical events were still in the future. (Matthew 24: 4-14) Doesn't Jesus warn his disciples not to be mislead by those who would speak of the immediacy of his coming? (Verses 23-26) If Jesus was speaking of two prophecies, one dealing with the destruction of Jerusalem and one that involved the "end of the age" as many Bible commentaries suggest wouldn't the latter fulfillment project far beyond the former?

In John's case, Christ's instruction John to "Write therefore, what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later." (Rev. 1:19) If John, in the spirit, was transferred to the "Lord's day" could he not speak of the events as current as they unfolded to him?

Certainly, Jesus' prophecy of the destruction of Jerusalem proved accurate. So accurate that critics prefer to believe that these prophecies in Matthew, Mark and Luke must have been written after the fact. I guess in the long run it all comes down to whether or not one believes in Christ's words or prefers to believe the higher critics' views. In either case, it is a matter of faith.

33

The Seven Churches

by Pahpa in

here is a point to ponder:.

when john was instructed to write letters to the seven churches (rev.

1 - 3) as to "what is now and what will take place" (1:19) why were not the members of those bad churches advised "get out of her, my people?

Pahpa

Leolaia

The historical interpretation really doesn't answer further questions that are raised. When the barbarian armies finally destroyed Rome as a world power the city remained and eventually became the center of the Catholic faith. Under the church it once again gained world recognition as a holy city. This hardly coincides with the total destruction of "Babylon the Great" as pictured in chapters 17 & 18. For example, "With such violence the great city of Babylon will be thrown down, never to be found again." (18:21) Rome remains.

The fact is that nothing in the context of Revelation clearly identifies the symbols that are used. One can speculate by drawing on history or other prophetic books like Daniel. But It remains speculation.

2

The Revelation Grand Climax Book

by UnDisfellowshipped in

i just thought i would post this because i know that the jw's are going to start studying the "revelation -- its grand climax at hand!

" book once again in the near future, and i wanted to let everyone know, who doesn't already know, some of the interesting and upbuilding "spiritual truths" found in this wonderful "food at the proper time":.

1:) chapter 15 says that jehovah's witnesses should sing songs of praise to jesus christ.. 2:) page 319 says that jesus was speaking in revelation 22:12 (and thus verse 13 also, which means jesus is the alpha and the omega, the almighty).. 3:) page 319 says that jehovah's witnesses should pray "amen.

Pahpa

I think the Watchtower is finally responding to criticisms of others that Jesus plays a minor role in the structure of Watchtower belief. When you consider the fact that the Watchtower teaches that only the "annointed" have Christ as a "mediator" and that only the "annointed" are part of Christ's body, it leaves the majority of Jehovah's Witnesses as second class citizens depended upon the "faithful and discreet slave" for salvation.

Every now again, the leaders of the Watchtower become sensitive to these criticims and attempt to address them through the publications. But it usually is "too little, too late" to make a difference.

16

Racism in the Jehovah Witness Watchtower

by fokyc in

http://www.progressiveu.org/161523-racism-in-the-jehovah-witness-watchtower.

"watchtower society members claim to be different and better than the worldly people that they refer to as bird food.

society members refer to non-witnesses as bird food because they look forward to the time when the birds will feast on the flesh of dead non-witnesses after armageddon.

Pahpa

The Watchtower Society makes much of its integrated organization. But those of us who are old enough remember the times when the Society segregated blacks from whites under the guise of "obeying Ceasar." In the south, paraticularly, congregations were separate. At assemblies the attendees were divided. It was only after the Civil Rights movement assured equal rights for all that the Watchtower began to integrate. The Watchtower was a follower, not a leader, in these matters.

33

The Seven Churches

by Pahpa in

here is a point to ponder:.

when john was instructed to write letters to the seven churches (rev.

1 - 3) as to "what is now and what will take place" (1:19) why were not the members of those bad churches advised "get out of her, my people?

Pahpa

RR

One has to be careful in being dogmatic in the interpretation of a highly symbolic book like Revelation. For example, if we accept Russell's (and the Bible Students') view on this matter we also have to accept that we are living in the "end times." Russell erroneously predicted dates pertaining to those times and to Armageddon as part of his message to the church. So, we have to conclude he failed as a "Laodicean Messenger." Christians down through history have been convinced that their time was the "end time." But history proved it wasn't true. This pattern continued with the Adventist movement of which Russell and Bible Students were a part. And it continues today with Jehovah's Witnesses.

Mary

The Reformers certainly identified the Roman Catholic Church as "Babylon the Great." They drew upon the symbolisms that seem to fit, at least, in their own minds. For example, John says that the "harlot" sits upon the seven headed beast each head representing "seven hills." Rome happened to be built upon seven hills. But, of course, if we take this literally, it would seem that the "beast" would represent Rome not the "harlot." And since it is the "beast" who destroys the "harlot", would this mean that Rome destroys the Roman Church? No, much of this is ambiguous. And, perhaps, it will not be known until "the end" occurs.

33

The Seven Churches

by Pahpa in

here is a point to ponder:.

when john was instructed to write letters to the seven churches (rev.

1 - 3) as to "what is now and what will take place" (1:19) why were not the members of those bad churches advised "get out of her, my people?

Pahpa

Star Moore:

There are various explanations about the 7 churches. One view that even the Watchtower held for awhile was that the churches represented different epochs down through history. As I recall, Russell was suppose to be the "Leodicean Messenger."

Some hold that the churches are representative of Christian churches today. A few hold faithfullly to the teachings of Christ. Others are far removed from the early Christian teachings. There is no doubt that these conditions did prevail in John's day. And it would follow that these examples would be a warning for Christians today.

41

"This Generation"

by Jeffro in

i know the witnesses changed their 'generation' definition in 1995 to get away from being tied down to the literal generation of people who saw 1914.. but applying their definition of the word to matthew 24:34 makes the verse meaningless, regardless of whether the original text grammatically allows for their interpretation.

there is no point in saying "this generation will by no means pass away" if 'generation' merely refers to an attitude of people which may remain the same for any ongoing period of time.. there is simply no point in saying it unless it was intended to refer specifically to a literal generation of people who were alive at the time.

of course, there is no validity to their 1914 doctrine anyway, but nevertheless, they are inextricably stuck with it..

Pahpa

Using Star Moore's reasoning that a generation is 20 years, it will still account for Jesus' words that the "generation" of his era would still exist at Jerusalem's destruction in 70 CE. But the Society has experienced at least five generations without any sign that "all these things will take place." Each of those generations of JWs were assured they were the ones that Jesus spoke of... The older generations grew old and died without the fulfillment. It is little wonder that the Watchtower decided to reinterpret Jesus' words.

14

Need help (I know, we've seen this a million time)

by Tras in

i know that this already exists in past threads, but i'd like an answer that fits my situation.

today i had an older witness preach to me and quoting every verse about a new earth and heaven, and meek shall inherit the eart, and the "do you have loved ones that died and you'd like to see again?".

anyway, he said he's coming back with a gift yada yada.. he's really nice and i don't want to offend him, cause he's an old man.

Pahpa

It has been my experience that when you challege a JWs, he doesn't really listen to your argument. He's only thinking of how he can overcome the point being made with the Watchtower's indoctrination. Unlike Christians who are willing to discuss subjects with a "give and take" attitude, JWs become very defensive. It's not like the Biblical counsel: "Come, let us reason together."

33

The Seven Churches

by Pahpa in

here is a point to ponder:.

when john was instructed to write letters to the seven churches (rev.

1 - 3) as to "what is now and what will take place" (1:19) why were not the members of those bad churches advised "get out of her, my people?

Pahpa

Here is a point to ponder:

When John was instructed to write letters to the seven churches (Rev. 1 - 3) as to "what is now and what will take place" (1:19) why were not the members of those bad churches advised "get out of her, my people?" Some those churches were so bad so as to in danger of being "removed" from its place. But as bad as these were, the members are told only "to overcome" and maintain their own peersonal faith. Evidently, they could remain in these congregation in spite of the deplorable conditions. Yet when it came to "Babylon the Great" believers are told to "Get out of her, my people." (Rev. 18:4)

Any thoughts?