Posts by FuzzyPaul

421

jesus denies being God! scriptural discussion.

by reniaa in

i thought after recently reading the bible i would put up for disussion some recent scriptures up which for me show that jesus never viewed himself as god and anyone listening would also see it this way too.. first mark 10 :17-20.

17as jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him.

"good teacher," he asked, "what must i do to inherit eternal life?

FuzzyPaul

I noticed the amount of interest this thread generated and prepared my thoughts but never finished them (it was 3am). Nevertheless I am compelled to add. 22 pages of response - wow.

I think that the idea of the trinity is closer to the truth because Jesus is not an Archangel any more than he is the trumpet! He is definitely identified as NOT BEING AN ANGEL. He is repeatedly called god in the Old Testament and the New Testament. And He, Jesus, is worshipped and it is commanded that he be worshipped. The same word for worship of The Father is the word for worship of The Son including when Matthew 28: 17 says " When they saw him, they worshiped him". It is the same word. Therefore one must ask, What is Worship? And what is a "god".

John 1:1 says that the logos was with "ton theon" which Strong's says means "The Supreme Deity". The Father is superior, greater, supremely in charge. That is not questioned. What is asked is whether Jesus denied being God. Isaiah 9 labels him "God". Being God is just what that means. I know that I am not directly answering your reference but others seem to have done well enough.

David wrote that the Son is God. Note my emphasis in Bold. I like The Holman Christian Standard Bible. It is more neutral than the New International Version which has been accused of being influenced by Calvin's ideas of absolute security of salvation.

Hebrews 1 (Holman Christian Standard Bible)

The Nature of the Son

1 Long ago God spoke ( A ) to the fathers by the prophets ( B ) at different times and in different ways. ( C ) 2 In these last days, ( D ) He has spoken to us by [His] Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things and through whom He made the universe. ( E ) [ a ] 3 He is the radiance [ b ] of His glory, the exact expression [ c ] of His nature, and He sustains all things by His powerful word. After making purification for sins, [ d ] He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high. ( F ) [ e ] 4 So He became higher in rank than the angels, just as the name He inherited is superior to theirs. ( G )

The Son Superior to Angels

5 For to which of the angels did He ever say, You are My Son; today I have become Your Father, [ f ] ( H ) or again, I will be His Father, and He will be My Son ? ( I ) ( J ) 6 When He again brings His firstborn into the world, ( K ) [ g ] He says, And all God's angels must worship Him. ( L ) ( M ) 7 And about the angels He says:

He makes His angels winds, [ h ]

and His servants [ i ] a fiery flame; ( N ) ( O )

8 but about the Son:

Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,

and the scepter of Your kingdom is a scepter of justice. ( P )

9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;

this is why God, Your God, has anointed You,

rather than Your companions, [ j ] ( Q ) with the oil of joy. ( R )

10 And:

In the beginning, Lord, You established the earth,

and the heavens are the works of Your hands; ( S )

11 they will perish, but You remain.

They will all wear out like clothing; ( T )

12 You will roll them up like a cloak, [ k ]

and they will be changed like a robe.

But You are the same,

and Your years will never end. ( U ) ( V )

13 Now to which of the angels has He ever said:

Sit at My right hand

until I make Your enemies Your footstool ? ( W ) [ l ] ( X )

14 Are they not all ministering spirits sent out to serve those who are going to inherit salvation? ( Y )

Footnotes:

Hebrews 1:2 Lit ages
Hebrews 1:3 Or reflection
Hebrews 1:3 Or representation, or copy, or reproduction
Hebrews 1:3 Other mss read for our sins by Himself
Hebrews 1:3 Or He sat down on high at the right hand of the Majesty
Hebrews 1:5 Or have begotten You
Hebrews 1:6 Or And again, when He brings His firstborn into the world
Hebrews 1:7 Or spirits
Hebrews 1:7 Or ministers
Hebrews 1:9 Or associates
Hebrews 1:12 Other mss omit like a cloak
Hebrews 1:13 Or enemies a footstool for Your feet

Cross references:

Hebrews 1:1 : Jn 9:29; Heb 2:2-3;
Hebrews 1:1 : Ac 2:30; 3:21;
Hebrews 1:1 : Num 12:6; 8; Jl 2:28;
Hebrews 1:2 : 2Pt 3:3; Jude 18;
Hebrews 1:2 : Ps 2:8; Jn 1:3;
Hebrews 1:3 : Mk 16:19; Col 1:17;
Hebrews 1:4 : Eph 1:21; Php 2:9;
Hebrews 1:5 : Ps 2:7;
Hebrews 1:5 : 2Sm 7:14; Ps 2:7; Ac 13:33;
Hebrews 1:5 : 2 Sm 7:14; 1 Ch 17:13;
Hebrews 1:6 : Rm 8:29; Heb 10:5;
Hebrews 1:6 : Dt 32:43; Ps 97:7;
Hebrews 1:6 : Dt 32:43; Ps 97:7;
Hebrews 1:7 : Ps 104:4;
Hebrews 1:7 : Ps 104:4;
Hebrews 1:8 : Ps 45:6-7;
Hebrews 1:9 : Ps 45:6-7;
Hebrews 1:9 : Is 61:1;, 3; Php 2:9;
Hebrews 1:10 : Ps 102:25;
Hebrews 1:11 : Is 34:4;
Hebrews 1:12 : Ps 102:26-27; Heb 13:8;
Hebrews 1:12 : Ps 102:25-27;
Hebrews 1:13 : Jos 10:24; Ps 110:1; Heb 10:13;
Hebrews 1:13 : Ps 110:1;
Hebrews 1:14 : Ps 103:20; Mt 18:10; Heb 5:9;

I used The Kingdom Interlinear for many years at the Kingdom Hall. It has a word by word translation of the Greek and the right column has the New World Translation's reading. Many, many times the NWT changed or altered the words and the meaning of a passage. In some places it is a true deceit. In other places words are changed but why? I can't see why but thay should have been left as they are. The Holman Christian Standard Bible is my study Bible but others read more fluidly like The New Living Translation. Notice how Hebrews 1 reads therein. Especially verse 14 which nails down the Jesus is not an angel thesis.

Hebrews 1 (New Living Translation)

Hebrews 1

Jesus Christ Is God’s Son

1 Long ago God spoke many times and in many ways to our ancestors through the prophets. 2 And now in these final days, he has spoken to us through his Son. God promised everything to the Son as an inheritance, and through the Son he created the universe. 3 The Son radiates God’s own glory and expresses the very character of God, and he sustains everything by the mighty power of his command. When he had cleansed us from our sins, he sat down in the place of honor at the right hand of the majestic God in heaven. 4 This shows that the Son is far greater than the angels, just as the name God gave him is greater than their names.

The Son Is Greater Than the Angels

5 For God never said to any angel what he said to Jesus:

“You are my Son.
Today I have become your Father. [ a ] ”

God also said,

“I will be his Father,
and he will be my Son.” [ b ]

6 And when he brought his firstborn Son into the world, God said, [ c ]

“Let all of God’s angels worship him.” [ d ]

7 Regarding the angels, he says,

“He sends his angels like the winds,
his servants like flames of fire.” [ e ]

8 But to the Son he says,

“Your throne, O God, endures forever and ever.
You rule with a scepter of justice.
9 You love justice and hate evil.
Therefore, O God, your God has anointed you,
pouring out the oil of joy on you more than on anyone else.” [ f ]

10 He also says to the Son,

“In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundation of the earth
and made the heavens with your hands.
11 They will perish, but you remain forever.
They will wear out like old clothing.
12 You will fold them up like a cloak
and discard them like old clothing.
But you are always the same;
you will live forever.” [ g ]

13 And God never said to any of the angels,

“Sit in the place of honor at my right hand
until I humble your enemies,
making them a footstool under your feet.” [ h ]

14 Therefore, angels are only servants—spirits sent to care for people who will inherit salvation.

Footnotes:

Hebrews 1:5 Or Today I reveal you as my Son. Ps 2:7.
Hebrews 1:5 2 Sam 7:14.
Hebrews 1:6 Or when he again brings his firstborn son into the world, God will say.
Hebrews 1:6 Deut 32:43.
Hebrews 1:7 Ps 104:4 (Greek version).
Hebrews 1:9 Ps 45:6-7.
Hebrews 1:12 Ps 102:25-27.
Hebrews 1:13 Ps 110:1.

Dear girl, you are trying hard and that is so good. The nature of God is very difficult to define. The idea of Jesus the God, and the Son of God is easily seen here in Hebrews 1. Forget putting an "a" into John 1:1. He just is.

Regards,

Paul

34

Young Witness Calls on Me with the Tract - We Both get Educated !

by flipper in

jw
friends

FuzzyPaul

Good job. I got a call from a couple of older sisters a while ago. The spiel was the same old same - same practiced answers. And they said the New World Translation is the most accurate Bible too.

NOT!

It can be so hard to get the door of a JW's mind opened enough to let a little sunshine in there. But the Lord got me out of the WT after 45 years and I go to a Southern Baptist Church now and find the Bible study to be very good with their Lifeway materials. I like the dinners, desert socials, choir, basketball games out back, prayer-breakfasts and nice loving friends I have. And my 10 year old son has good friends, lots of them. He takes guitar lessons from one of the teens here for $20 an hour, cheap I'm told.

No more living in the basement for us.

Regards,

Paul

48

Notice this Contradiction on How Jehovah's Witnesses View Marriage

by flipper in

jw
friends

in the new book released at the witnesses assemblies this year , " keep yourselves in god's love " notice this bit of counsel given on possible separations in marriage .

it says on pg.

221 , " absolute endangerment of spiritual life.

FuzzyPaul

Homerovah,

Perfect conclusion. The contradictions abound in the WT fantasy world. For instance, at the KHall we were always taught that ONLY JWs will survive Armageddon but when at the door in field service one is instructed to say that God reads the heart and decides. Completely dishonest - lies by any other name smell just as offensively.

Raymond Franz's book In Search of Christian Freedom details dozens (seems like hundreds) of cases of gross editorial dishonesty. I remember reading how the FDS (ha!) - even deliberately misquote - rearranging the words to alter the content of the statements to their own ends. Penton in his book Apocalyse Delayed tells story after story of WT lies and intrigue - right out of their own literature.

I go to a Southern Baptist Church and find the people to be absolutely fantastic. No intrusiveness or spying. If I contradict something at Sunday School no one hauls me off with their hands on my neck (saw that once) to disfellowship me. I am respected and loved.

It turns out, most of tradional Christianity's doctrines are closer to the Bible's teachings than not. Jesus is OUR God, Savior, Lord and Father. He has a God, Father, Lord and Savior as well but is still OUR God. Isaiah 9 you know. When the changes in the NWT are analyzed (I used The Kingdom Interlinear in The KHall for years and kept finding changes that seriously altered or obscured the meaning) the Translation Committee altered every passage that could be read against eternal judgement, a spirit component to Mankind (Soul is our etherial component) to quote Plato in The Republic

Socrates - ADEIMANTUS

Adeimantus thought that the enquiry would be of great service to us.

Then, I said, my dear friend, the task must not be given up, even
if somewhat long.

Certainly not.
Come then, and let us pass a leisure hour in story-telling, and our
story shall be the education of our heroes.

By all means.
And what shall be their education? Can we find a better than the traditional
sort? --and this has two divisions, gymnastic for the body, and music
for the soul.

The Greek SeptuagintI uses THAT word for soul at a time when it meant to every Greek speaker in the Greek Empire what Plato wrote. A word is defined by its comtemporaneous usage, not by revisionist historians.

Umm, notice how the Resurection of the rest of the Dead happens after Satan is imprisoned forever, after the final attack on God's people at the end of the 1,000 years or when it has ended. WHY resurrect someone, tell them "You are not found written in the Book of Life - now go back to sleep forever." A perverse rearragement of What is actually written with explanations that have no proof in Holy Writ is the table fare of the Watchtower.

Tradional Christianity identifies the fact that of the Holy Spirit being a person, (The angel of God's presence)

Isaiah 63: 9, 10 (Holman Christian Standard Bible)

In all their suffering, He suffered,
and the Angel of His Presence saved them.
He redeemed them
because of His love and compassion;
He lifted them up and carried them
all the days of the past.

10 But they rebelled,
and grieved His Holy Spirit.
So He became their enemy
[and] fought against them.

I know that I could go on and on, I am recognized for being a deep student and I get called a "scholar" by some. I take finding joy in research seriously. We all recognize the deep level of nonsense and dark thinking coming from the HQ at Bethel, joining the United Nations and such. WHY trust them for anything? Question everything - I found most of what they taught me is twisted or rearranged or misrepresented.

Read The Book of Enoch at http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/boe/ and remember how Jude quotes Enoch Book 1 vs.9 as being prophetic. Prophecy is the only absolute proof of Divine Inspiration. The book of Enoch was found in The Dead Sea scrolls and is known to have been widely read in the First Century. Also, you night find reading The Recognitions of Clement at ccel.org of great interest since Clement writes that he studied with Barnabas and Peter.

Regards,

Paul

23

JW'S: WHAT A LOVING BUNCH!

by Mary in

jw
friends

i just found out that one of my moms friends is in the process of being taken to the cleaners by her scumbag son-in-law and her own daughter---both who are witnesses.

she's been widowed for several years now and, like many witnesses, her husband had no life insurance (why bother----the new system was going to be here long before either of them got sick or died right?

) and she had never worked outside the home.. anyway, she managed to save enough money through working part time (she gets part of her husband's pension but it's only about $800.00 a month) and she put a small downpayment on a place to live.

FuzzyPaul

I think she should change the locks to Bank Vault level, put in a security system, chain-link fense with spike top and a NO TREPASSING sign. Then she should go to Elder Affairs and report him. Then when he shows up and sets off the alarm and tries to bust the locks to get in she can call the Police and have his filthy carcass hauled off.

I understand the Hells Angels still do security work despite that incident at the Rolling Stones concert.

Isn't this the same religion that makes you disown your family member for going to another church for a wedding? Or eating lunch with your disfellowshipped boss?

Paul

12

The answer to the WT making more money

by horrible life in

jw
friends

advertisements and direct sales .

this is the answer to all the financial woes of the wt.

wanting more and more money from the rank and file, in these economic bad times, is like beating a dead horse.

FuzzyPaul

Did the Watchtower really say that JWs can drink the wine and eat the bread at the memorial?

Wow - I went to a Lutheran Church for that last year.

Regards,

Paul

12

The answer to the WT making more money

by horrible life in

jw
friends

advertisements and direct sales .

this is the answer to all the financial woes of the wt.

wanting more and more money from the rank and file, in these economic bad times, is like beating a dead horse.

FuzzyPaul

The Watchtower IS NOT WHAT THEY THEY SAY THEY ARE. They take in huge amounts of money and do not support any charities. Jesus in Matthew 25:31-46 says that the standard of measure for who is a Sheep or a Goat is whether one recognizes true charity and HELPS other people.

The WT is going to get a very adverse judgement - the total destruction they rant about for others - and have not only set themselves up for it but the JWs who think that feeding starving people is just like "Painting the deck of a sinking ship." That is way callous.

SOOOOooooo. No. I think the Watchtower has sought and hoarded quite enough Filthy Lucre.

ACTUALLY. I WANT SOME $$,$$$,$$$.00 BACK. I spent 46 years wasting my time and energy and money on a bag of rags to hand out and parade with. I want to be compensated for what I lost while the Governing Body lived HIGH.

Regards,

Paul

I Accept Jesus as my personal lord and savior. "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." Salvation is by Faith alone - In Christ alone. Not through membership in a publishing corporation.

33

Do You Support Jehovah's Witnesses in ANY Way???

by minimus in

jw
friends

FuzzyPaul

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. Before I left the Watchtower 3 years ago, I wouldn't give a nickel for the electric bill at the KH.

I have been going to tradional Christian Churches since then and always give $5 - for the electric bill. But I got a good order for some custom made furniture and gave for the IMB misionaries. http://www.imb.org/main/default.asp I am not well off but I think I get way more truth at my local Southern Baptist Church. AND I AM LOVED THERE!

Blessings,

Paul

Check out my other posts for my speal on Salvation by Faith Alone.

84

Well, Well, Well Let's all welcome the Great Tribulation!!!!!!!!!

by unbaptized in

well it seems that $750 billion dollar bail out was a waste of time.

it seems like companies are filing bankruptcy as fast as the market can recoup.

the crime rate is about to go through the roof.

FuzzyPaul

September 11 2001 started The Great Tribulation. Babylon The Great is Big Business - Wall Street - IS the capitol of Big Business. Eisenhower in his Presidential farewell address said to Beware of The Military - Industrial Complex.

All the buildings of The World Trade center fell on 9/11/2001 not just the Twin Towers. The Pentagon was attacked. Seven years later to the day - The top five Investment Banks on Wall Street went belly up. CNBC is begging for GM, Ford, Chrysler and the other troubled sectors to be "SOCIALIZED".

THIS IS THE HAND OF GOD.

The WT is BS but there is an "end of the age."

Have faith in God. Accept Jesus as your personal lord and savior. I did and I spent 46 years in the WT. I now go to a Southern Baptist Church and have never felt so loved. I love to study the Bible and feel way better informed about the scriptures - especially Romans. Go to an Evangelist like a Baptist, Assemblies of God ... church office and challenge yourself - not him - about Salvation by Faith.

It is over,

Paul

53

Your favorite Christmas song?

by sacolton in

jw
friends

(include a youtube video if possible).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-2tnp9whdu.

FuzzyPaul

I am heading up a Boy's choir and think that The Carol of the Bells is awesome. The George Winston piano solo version on December is remarkable. Teaching boys (with my 10 year old son in the group) The Carol of the Bells would be a tough challenge especially since I was not a Music major in College.

No X-mas trees for me - just Love for Jesus Christ. Christmas spreads the gospel and this I know - The Watchtower lies and says anything to cast a shadow of doubt over tradional Christianity. It is not something I explore casually. ANYthing with a prominent place in Christianity is thrown away by the Watchtower's religion.

The reason "Jehovah" is God in the Hebrew scriptures and is never named in the Greek scriptures AND verses quoting the Hebrew where "Jehovah" appears but applying them to JESUS shows that the Christian writers had recognized the Messiah as having the fullness of deity.

46 years as a JW and 2 years in the Baptist Church and I sound like a trinitarian.

Jesus had a Lord, Savior, God and Father - the one he called "Father." John 20:17 He - Jesus Christ is our Lord, God, Savior, and Father. John 1 and Isaiah 9. John 1:1 is translated wrongly by everyone because the logos was with "ton theon" which means "THE God" not "God". Strongs explains that it means "The Supreme Deity". Jesus is OUR God.

If one were to assume that Jesus is our God and allow contentious verses to be viewed from that perspective the New Testament makes better sense. Things don't have to be explained away when the obvious surface meaning fits the premise that Jesus is our God. Read John 10:31-38 at http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search= using the NIV or The New Living Translation, John 3:16 and 17:3 are seriously rewritten by the WT to mislead. Salvation is by Faith alone. Works can't save - only condemn. Compare every translation there and see.

The WT is a detractor of Christainity. Jesus did not wait until 1914 to be given authority. 1914 is bogus. Jesus got it all before he ascended including the family name of Yahweh.

Matthew 28:18 Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

John 17:11 I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name—the name you gave me—so that they may be one as we are one.

Christmas to ME is the time of year when attention is drawn to the Gospel of his birth and presentation at the Temple. It spreads the Gospel.

Jesus is a person with feelings. He is interested in us personally. He is not a computer progarm with true / false results. He wasn't a Pharasee with legalism as his agenda. Jesus is a real person who loves us , me, and you.

My prayers with you all.

Paul

Have you seen these you-tube videos on JWs & WT?

by FuzzyPaul in

i went looking for information on the watchtower.

i came across a main-stream news you-tube video on the alleged jw's baby rapers.

there was a link for related videos.

FuzzyPaul

I went looking for information on the Watchtower. I came across a main-stream news you-tube video on the alleged JW's baby rapers. There was a link for related videos. Dozens of videos on Watchtower occult origins in the Free-masons, personal testimonies and videos about the dark side of the Watchtower. Many Free-masons are simply decent folks in a peculiar club. But -

Charles Taze Russell was a lunatic-fringe Free Mason and to think he believed that measuring the length of a hallway in The Great Pyramid of Giza could predict the future - and the very Return of Jesus Christ - is likely to qualify him as certifiably delusional. Does DSM-IV have a section on delusional prognosticators?

What would the criteria for such a thing as "Acute Charles Russellism" be?

Here is the You-Tube link for the videos:

http://www.youtube.com/results?search=related&search_query=authoritarian%20religion%20ex%20jehovah%27s%20jehovahs%20watchtower%20witness%20witnesses%20jw%20cult%20support%20spiritual%20abuse%20mind%20control&v=O3_mDtyUGSA&page=2

If you are sympathetic to the Watchtower and think they are too holy to be accused and guilty of moral terpitude go away and leave this link alone. But do view the videos.

Many regards,

Paul