Has anyone ever presented this to a lawyer or judge? It doesn't seem legal give masses of people with individual circumstances and situations generalized responses to questions that would be asked in a courtroom. Seems to me like this would be equal to saying - no, you can't be honest, just say what we've told you to say - wouldn't a judge see that as an obstruction?
The fact that they even have to give members something of that nature is just sad - it's like saying "we can't trust you sorry suckers to be honest lest you defame the name of the organization!"
And if you have to TELL PEOPLE that they need to let others know that their ideas are a result of their own thinking - then their ideas are obviously NOT THEIR OWN THINKING!! I mean, come on.
girasole
girasole
JoinedPosts by girasole
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WT book that instructs members how to lie in court..Is there such a thing?
by whyizit ini seem to remember something about a wts book that is used to instruct member on how to lie in custody battles, etc.... .
do any of you know what i am talking about?.
i would like more information on this, if it does indeed exist.
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girasole
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Do you consider yourself a spiritual person?
by hambeak insince most of us on this board have left the org for one reason or another, do you still feel a sense of spirituality to the great spirit?.
if so how?
if not why?.
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girasole
I consider myself a spiritual person in that I like to experience the wonder and awe in nature and in life. I enjoy seeing the complexity in things. I believe in the interconnectedness of all things - among humans and in nature and I believe that every person and thing contributes to this whether consciously or subconsciously.
Personally, I do not attribute any events in nature or acts of humans to proof of a god. I simply absorb, accept, and appreciate what I observe.
girasole -
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"i enjoyed your talk Brother"
by fleaman uk ini was musing about being a jw the other day.im not scarred by it like many,i dont hate anyone in my old cong..theres a couple of idiotic elders of course,but in the main my biggest thing when i think of my past life is the farsical nonsense of it all!.
meeting attendance,knocking on doors...oh dear.. one of the stupidest things was being required to do talks.i mean,come on who really used to listen to that drivel..i mean really listen?.
i was an ok speaker,nothing briliant,competent ..even gave a pub talk once when all the elders were on a jolly up at elders school.. it occurred to me how robotic bros and sis were when it came to giving praise!no matter how crap the talk was,one would always get a "i really enjoyed your talk brother".every time.without fail.i know they were being nice,i used to say it all the time too.my dad once said it to me and i asked him what he liked most about it?he admitted he didnt remember what it was even about.i dont remember in 30 years man and boy ever enjoying a talk.. yep,its a nonsense religion alright.full of braindead robots.. did anyone actually pay close attention and really enjoy the "food"from the platform?
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girasole
I payed attention at meetings for the same reason that I did anything else as a witness - fear and acceptance. I wanted to have something to contribute when later I was with others talking about a particular talk or convention, etc.
I remember the very last talk that I ever gave at the TMS meeting - at this point I had already psychologically separated from the WT but had not "come out" publically. Many people came up to me and commended me for it afterwards and later someone close to me said that they were "worried about my spirituality" until that night but that after my talk they knew that god's holy spirit was with me. So of course, the reason that I had done so well did not have anything to do with god's holy spirit! Rather, I had been mentally removed from the organization for a while and I had done a lot of critical thinking and research about the indoctrination process. Basically, I knew exactly what they wanted and I gave it to them.
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Not DF'd or shunned?
by girasole inhas anyone else found that they were not treated as expected when they .
" i was threatened and guilted and the whole gamut but i was .
never disfellowshipped or counseled or even so much as visited by the .
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girasole
Has anyone else found that they were not treated as expected when they
"came out?" I was threatened and guilted and the whole gamut but I was
never disfellowshipped or counseled or even so much as visited by the
elders and I wonder if that was all intentional.
I told my father, an elder, explicitly that I did not believe the
witnesses anymore and had no intention of going back to the KH. I
stated reason after reason why I did not believe in WT doctrine anymore
and openly condemned their practices as unethical and insincere. When
I first stopped attending meetings I was endlessly harrassed by people
knocking at my door and calling constantly - at first even in the middle of the night was
not altoghether unusual. Therefore I had a couple
of hiding places at the homes of worldly friends - one of whom was a male.
My parents somehow figured out where he lived and drove by there in
the middle of the night - so they knew that I was there all night -
which is in the elder book specifically as a reprovable offense -
whether any "wrongdoing" occured or not - because it does not project a
wholesome image.
I got married to a man who has never been a witness and my parents
helped to plan and came to the wedding. My mother even said that the
other "friends" wanted to do something but that they weren't sure how I
would feel about it. One JW even brought a gift by my house. My husband and I have
both been asked to dinner by witnesses several times. i have declined every offer
because I know that the
interest is not genuine and therefore would not result in a genuine and sincere
friendship. What are they going to do? find out that I reject their
every notion and teaching and still embrace me with open arms? It's a
ploy and I know it is. Why subject myself to that? But that's very
hard to explain to a witness who of course is going to deny that their
interest is not genuine - so I always come out looking like the bad
guy.
If I say anything like that to my mother, who likes to remind me when
she has the chance that everyone still loves me and wants me in their
life, she tries to convince me that no one has rejected me or cut me
out
of their life - that it's me who is doing the shunning.
That doesn't mean that there have not been any blow ups. We've had a
number of them. When I applied for a job at a non-approving agency my mother
came to my apartment banging down my door in a panic saying that if I took
the job that the elders would see that as a public display of my
dissention and I'd be disfellowshipped - cut and dry - no question
about
it. I reminded her that I'd already clearly stated that my life will
not be governed by the WT and that I no longer ascribed to their
teachings. I told her plainly that I wanted the job and if it was
offered I would take it. It's like she didn't hear me or something.
Of
course, the whole issue became moot because I wasn't offered the job. Again,
I stated over and over and over that I rejected the WT teachings and that they were going
to have no role in my life.
But it's like everything that usually happens did not happen in my
case.
Our family was in constant emotional turmoil for more than a year
over
this and my dad was never even asked to step down as an elder. I
halfway wonder if they weren't honest with the other elders and others
in the congregation so as to protect me and protect themselves from
having to choose between me and their religion. It all just seems
strange.
It's like they don't want for me to be able to say that I was turned
away - though they haven't hesitated to threaten it from time to time.
Maybe they think that since I was once the model witness that I'll
eventually come back around if they shower me with "kindness" and personal interest. After
I stopped attending meetings I had people who never really talked to me that much
at the hall - calling me and knocking at my door.
Maybe because of all the things that I
said they feel that DF'ing me would just add fuel to my fire. if they did know about all the things that I said to my parents - much of which was in writing - maybe they thought it best not to prove them entirely and predictably true? -
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Should Ex-JWs Speak Out?
by girasole inwhen it comes to the jws i used to hold the position, "to each his own.
" i still do in some respects.
i agree that it is most likely futile to try de-convert a die-hard jw.
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girasole
BabaYaga,
Your comments about fear resonate with me as well. Admittedly, I am not completely forthcoming about my current beliefs and opinions with my family because I fear losing them. I am not DF'd or DA'd and my JW family still speaks to me. So in a sense the WT still has control over me because I do not feel free to be completely honest. When I have told non-witnesses about my experience as a witness there is always this nagging fear that my family will find out that I'm marring the WT image in the community ( I live in a small one so this is not altogether unlikely).
I find that most non-JWs know very little about the religion other than that they do not celebrate holidays. People are usually shocked when I share my experience with them.
i agree that it would be counter productive in most cases to engage in any kind of heated shouting from the rooftops. For current JWs it would just give more fuel to them as they woudl just say, "See, just like Jesus said, we are persecuted and hated." Isn't it just amazing that the JWs have it so perfectly crafted so that even negative things said about them just empowers them even more. To them even the existence of this forum and other sites just lends proof to their argument (in their eyes anyway) that Satan is blinding people and does not want for them to know the truth.
For those already on the inside, I think in most cases those ones need to move through their own processes and what Dansk said is true - the best defense is being happy in one's own life. I can't even name the number of stories I heard about people who left the "truth" and then ruined their lives. Another great fear tactic!
girasole -
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Has the rules changed?
by pratt1 ina relative of my wife, just got engaged to a "worldly guy".. the young lady is a baptized publisher, and i am shocked to hear that no one has made a negative comment about her future husband not being an dub.. even her mother who is a pioneer has not made an issue of the engagement.. has things changed?.
are the elders easing up a little on the rank and file?.
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girasole
I left the witnesses in 2002. In 2003 I got married and both of my parents attended the wedding. They even said that some of the "friends" had asked if they could do anything or get me anything - but they didn't know how I would feel about that. I was shocked. And then realized that they were just doing that so it would appear that I was always the one who was turning them away and not vice versa. They were the kind and welcoming ones and I was the one who was shutting them out. brilliant.
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Did You Know what You Were Getting Into?
by Honesty inwe as jehovah's witnesses do not allow people to become baptized prior to gaining accurate knowledge of what we believe and teach according to the bible.
if someone wants to join with us in worship and become baptized, they must also demonstrate that they know what they are getting into.
that they agree with what we believe and teach.. .
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girasole
I had no idea what the implications of my decision would be. I was 16. When the elders came to my house and went over the questions with me - by that time I knew that you didn't find the answers to those questions yourself - you looked them up in other wt material and it was clear what the right and wrong answers were about your intentions and motivations.
I wanted to be accepted. My parents had guilted me out of my worldly friends and I didn't have any close friends. I started trying to get to know the other young people at the hall even though I didn't feel that I really could connect with them. Low and behold I eventually did find one other young person that I could connect with. We started spending more and more time together. Eventually, her mom wanted to start controlling the amount of time that we spent together telling her daughter that even though I was attending meetings I was still unbaptized and therefore bad association.
So basically I got baptized to be accepted, shallow as it may sound, I was 16. I knew my parents would forbid my association and acceptance among worldly people. Of course they like to say that they let me make my own decision because they were not 100% strict on that. I did have worldly associations for a while - but ulitimately I knew what would come. As they were just then baptized and the "talks" were ever more increasing.
On the day of my baptism I gave an embellished experience at a circuit assembly about how I broke away from worldly associations and how I managed to keep my faith at school among worldly associates. After that I gave the same experience at a district convention and that was followed by another experience at a circuit assembly. I felt that I had finally been "embraced." I was accepted. I was part of the group. And at 16, that was all I really wanted, to be "part" of something.
When you're immersed in the lifestyle and you only take in and digest what they say you should, it is very convincing. I remember thinking that it was just so simple and I couldn't understand why other people in the world just couldn't grasp "the truth." My dissent was slow in some respects because I constantly kept reassuring myself of all those "just so simple" things - that when I observed injustice and superficiality, and loose connections I replaced them with what I wanted to believe - and never fully examined for a long time what I really did believe.
girasole -
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Changes at NY Bethel
by architect inlast dec 2005, the ny bethel gave talks indicating that they had to downsize (word is mine) due to "improved technology" and that as a result of this simplification some bethel family members would be invited to serve in the united states field in various assignments at various congregations where the excellent training they have recieved at bethel could be put to use and contribute much to the preaching and disciple making work.. what do you make of this?.
i wonder how they would determine who stays or goes?.
are there any former bethel members out there who can comment on rather this would be an easy transistion for those who have to leave?.
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girasole
I wonder if Bethel is paying their relocation and living expenses as they do for the COs. Probably not. Which I know would really stink if that affected some of the bethelites that I knew. Many forfieted college and career training to go to bethel (ie - they didn't know what else to do). I know that is not the case with a lot of bethelites who were asked to come to bethel because they did have specialized training or skills. But for those that don't they will likely not be exactly marketable for jobs in the real world.
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Anti-Witnessed at an Office Today! It was fun!
by Seeker4 ini had to travel to another newspaper owned by the company i work for to learn some of their software today.
it's an open office with everyone in one room, and we had a lot of interesting conversations on all sorts of subjects.. at one point a reporter made a comment about a photo he was running, and noted that the woman had made comments that it was only with the help of the lord that she had been able to move her radio shack store to its new location.
one of the other reporters said that it was good that jesus had died on the cross 2000 years ago so that he could be available to help her out.
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girasole
I love it - seeker4! That would be cool if the reporters followed up on that.
Anti-witnessing is so much better because it's OUR OWN. I now realize that going door-to-door was so difficult for me because it was not my own. At the time I just felt inadequate. It took a great amount of time and energy for me to prepare and I was terrified of someone asking me a question that I would not know the prescribed answer to.
It's liberating! I can actually answer people's questions about what I believe because it's just that - really what I believe! - Not something that I was forced to commit to memory for fear of defaming Jehovah at someone's door because I didn't know how to answer a rebuttal.
girasole -
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i was born into a violent abusive JW family
by ania inthe abuser was my father, we were all (7 children) abused severely (including our mother) as a child i did not understand what exactly was going on but after many years of councelling and so-forth (my counceller tells me, my case is the most severe she has had in her 12 years as a counceller) i discovered that my father was (is) a sado-masichist.
he got sexual enjoyment from beating us all.
i already knew this to an extent i just never realised there was actually a name for what he got out of it.. after 20 odd years of this abuse, my mother had tried to go through the right channels (the elders, in several congregations we moved to etc) in order to get permission to take her children and live separate to her husband who was a constant threat to our very lives (he was a diagnosed paranoid schizophrenic & incrediably unpredictable) she was however told time and again that if she left her husband she and her unbaptised children (under 18) would most certainly lose out on everlasting life.
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girasole
Thank you for sharing your story, ania. It is outrageous what people in the org can get away with and still be revered and emulated.
peace to you,
girasole