Because all of these are forced to, in one way or another, suffer the effects of what Satan and his demons did, which resulted in the fall of man too.
Mondo1
JoinedPosts by Mondo1
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137
New World Translation Brackets!!
by gold_morning infor what it is worth i wanted to pass this along.. we are all aware of those convienient brackets used in the new world translation.
the infamous colossians 1:16....."because by means of him all ((((other)))))) things were created...".
at the very bottom of the first page of their bible ...the foreword.... it says.
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137
New World Translation Brackets!!
by gold_morning infor what it is worth i wanted to pass this along.. we are all aware of those convienient brackets used in the new world translation.
the infamous colossians 1:16....."because by means of him all ((((other)))))) things were created...".
at the very bottom of the first page of their bible ...the foreword.... it says.
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Mondo1
The word "Satan" does not need to be included in the text to be excluded. (cf. Heb. 2:8 for the Father as the exclusion though not specified)
Satan would definitely not be included within what is "reconiciled." If we follow the gloss provided by BDAG the impossibility of this clearly seen: "to cause a right or harmonious relationship, make peace."
1) Obviously everything other than Christ himself would have been made in him and through him. That seems to be a given to me.
2) The heavenly things would include the angels and the physical universe.
3) Some view them to be the angels, as the mediators of the law, others the demons. Per the context, I am included to go with the first of these views.
Mondo
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239
Revelation 1.17 Jesus divinity? Or just "the first" raised from the dead"?
by Hellrider ini have been having an argument in this thread, which originally was about the trinity (oh no, not again.... http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/121719/1.ashx.
...with mondo1, about what the text in revelation 1.17 means.
i don`t want this thread to turn into another trinity-thread, let`s just keep it to the phrase "the first and the last", and revelation, and jesus` status in this text.
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Mondo1
Hebrews 13:8 does nothing to show Christ as eternal. Even Gill confesses this.
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137
New World Translation Brackets!!
by gold_morning infor what it is worth i wanted to pass this along.. we are all aware of those convienient brackets used in the new world translation.
the infamous colossians 1:16....."because by means of him all ((((other)))))) things were created...".
at the very bottom of the first page of their bible ...the foreword.... it says.
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Mondo1
It seems that you are not reading the text closely. (Col 1:16) For all things were created in Him, the things in the heavens, and the things on the earth, the visible and the invisible; whether thrones, or lordships, or rulers, or authorities, all things have been created through Him and for Him.
All things
- in heaven
- on earth
- visible
- invisiblewhether -
- thrones
- lordships
- rulers
- authoritiesThe text does not say "all things in these places... meaning these things." It says TA PANTA and then goes on to give more specific details, but it does not limit TA PANTA to those specific things.
Now would you argue that Satan is not in heaven or on earth? From Scripture we find that these are the two places that he is shown to be. The same with the demons. We find these same points to apply to verse 20. So I really can't see how are you trying to argue that Satan would be contextually expluded from TA PANTA, but I see that only by the action that takes place upon TA PANTA (being reconciled to God) are we able to know the qualification. Similarly then, by the action of TA PANTA being created EN AUTWi we know the qualification.
Mondo
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239
Revelation 1.17 Jesus divinity? Or just "the first" raised from the dead"?
by Hellrider ini have been having an argument in this thread, which originally was about the trinity (oh no, not again.... http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/121719/1.ashx.
...with mondo1, about what the text in revelation 1.17 means.
i don`t want this thread to turn into another trinity-thread, let`s just keep it to the phrase "the first and the last", and revelation, and jesus` status in this text.
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Mondo1
Obviously not. I can only speculate that he has the ability to instantly look at any moment in time and see what takes place.
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239
Revelation 1.17 Jesus divinity? Or just "the first" raised from the dead"?
by Hellrider ini have been having an argument in this thread, which originally was about the trinity (oh no, not again.... http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/121719/1.ashx.
...with mondo1, about what the text in revelation 1.17 means.
i don`t want this thread to turn into another trinity-thread, let`s just keep it to the phrase "the first and the last", and revelation, and jesus` status in this text.
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Mondo1
For this, he both predestined and foresaw. I would argue that it is by ability and not by nature. Though one might say that one's ability can be tied into their nature, though not always.
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137
New World Translation Brackets!!
by gold_morning infor what it is worth i wanted to pass this along.. we are all aware of those convienient brackets used in the new world translation.
the infamous colossians 1:16....."because by means of him all ((((other)))))) things were created...".
at the very bottom of the first page of their bible ...the foreword.... it says.
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Mondo1
Narkissos,
The text does not limit TA PANTA to "invisible/heavenly thrones and dominions and rulers and powers and authorities," but it includes them. If the text were limited to that there would be nothing to discuss to begin with. Because of this, the rest of your argument doesn't seem to follow. Either Satan is reconciled to God or he isn't. If he is, Scripture then doesn't make much sense, if he isn't, then TA PANTA cannot be absolute.
Mondo
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239
Revelation 1.17 Jesus divinity? Or just "the first" raised from the dead"?
by Hellrider ini have been having an argument in this thread, which originally was about the trinity (oh no, not again.... http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/121719/1.ashx.
...with mondo1, about what the text in revelation 1.17 means.
i don`t want this thread to turn into another trinity-thread, let`s just keep it to the phrase "the first and the last", and revelation, and jesus` status in this text.
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Mondo1
Yes, but a resurrected man.
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239
Revelation 1.17 Jesus divinity? Or just "the first" raised from the dead"?
by Hellrider ini have been having an argument in this thread, which originally was about the trinity (oh no, not again.... http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/121719/1.ashx.
...with mondo1, about what the text in revelation 1.17 means.
i don`t want this thread to turn into another trinity-thread, let`s just keep it to the phrase "the first and the last", and revelation, and jesus` status in this text.
-
-
Mondo1
DD,
Well if you want to call him an angel.. lets do it for the sake of discussion. He is not an angel/human because he no longer exists as an angel. He isn't 50/50 or 100/100 as Trinitarians would oxymoronically say. He is 100% human in his existence, he simply had another mode of existence prior.
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239
Revelation 1.17 Jesus divinity? Or just "the first" raised from the dead"?
by Hellrider ini have been having an argument in this thread, which originally was about the trinity (oh no, not again.... http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/121719/1.ashx.
...with mondo1, about what the text in revelation 1.17 means.
i don`t want this thread to turn into another trinity-thread, let`s just keep it to the phrase "the first and the last", and revelation, and jesus` status in this text.
-
-
Mondo1
littletoe,
I don't think we have any way of knowing. The Bible doesn't tell us and so we can only speculate. The lamb being slain before the foundation of the world (age) is prophetic. It was as done because God said it would be. The "world" though is the "age" that began when Adam and Eve were expelled from the garden. So I don't see how this tells us anything about time.