Posts by Earnest

28

An interesting Observation of some Bibles

by Blotty in

first of all, hi, i go by blotty on this website :) i am someone who has a passion for the bible and like to get a as balanced view as i can from the trinitarian and the jw (or unitarian) side - even though i come off as leaning towards one or the other at times, in my opinion they both have merits in certain cases..if this is in the wrong section i apologise - this is just something i found interesting.iv seen online a lot that say the watchtower and tract society "invented" the link between proverbs 8:22 - 30 and jesus (the word).

yet interestingly some "mainstream" "trinitarian- aimed" translations are cross referencing the following:source:https://www.biblegateway.comprov 8:22 cr rev 3:14niv, gnt,esv, nasb, nasb1995, nasbre, cevprov 8:30 cr john 1:1,2 esv nasbprov 8:30 cr john 1:3esvnasb1995nasb(this list is by no means complete)if this is simply wisdom, why is it referenced with jesus (or the word)?.

Earnest

jhine : I see no evidence for [identifying Jesus with Michael the Arch Angel] in the Bible so where does this come from?

The evidence is presented on the JW website here. I would note that the article says "Consider why it is reasonable to conclude that Jesus is the archangel Michael...". The fact that it is reasonable or likely does not mean that it is so, but only that it may be.

Clearly the notion that Jesus is reasonably the archangel Michael could only be held by those who do not believe he has always existed, and so is not even entertained by trinitarian churches. But there were some early Christian writers who shared the same view.

88

New method to absolutely date Fall of Jerusalem.

by waton in

for what it is worth to those interested.

1914.. tel-aviv university.

"biblical military campaigns reconstructed using geomagnetic field data.

Earnest

In my post above

When calibrated it came up with date ranges differing by 94 years between the earliest (971) and the latest (844) BCE dates.

should read :

When calibrated it came up with date ranges differing by 127 years between the earliest (971) and the latest (844) BCE dates.

88

New method to absolutely date Fall of Jerusalem.

by waton in

for what it is worth to those interested.

1914.. tel-aviv university.

"biblical military campaigns reconstructed using geomagnetic field data.

Earnest

Jeffro : The curve for the archaeomagnetic intensity is ... strongly based on carbon dating for the relevant period in the 10th century BCE.

In a previous post on this thread I displayed a table of radiocarbon dates of Tel Rehov V produced in the article C14 dates from Tel Rehov: Iron-Age chronology, pharaohs, and Hebrew kings (Science 300, 315–318 (2003)). The radiocarbon was tested in four laboratories which came up with four different BP date ranges differing by 84 years between the earliest (2810 + 20) and the latest (2761 - 15) dates. When calibrated it came up with date ranges differing by 94 years between the earliest (971) and the latest (844) BCE dates.

In his article The Debate over the Chronology of the Iron Age in the Southern Levant, 2005, Amihai Mazar states :

In the Beth Shean Valley Archaeological Project (Tel Beth-Shean and Tel Rehov excavations) we obtained about 100 C14 dates from the early Bronze I through the Iron IIA periods, measured in four different laboratories. The results enable appreciation of both the capabilities of the method as well as its limitations and possible flaws. The many stages of selecting the samples, the pre-treatment, the method and process of dating, and the wide standard deviation of Accelerator Mass Spectrometry dates may create a consistent bias, outliers, or an incoherent series of dates. The calibration process adds further problems, related to the nature of the calibration curve in each period.

My intention is not to raise a debate about carbon 14 dating, but only to say it is not precise and if the curve of the archaeomagnetic intensity is strongly based on the carbon dating then that, too, is not fixed in stone.

28

An interesting Observation of some Bibles

by Blotty in

first of all, hi, i go by blotty on this website :) i am someone who has a passion for the bible and like to get a as balanced view as i can from the trinitarian and the jw (or unitarian) side - even though i come off as leaning towards one or the other at times, in my opinion they both have merits in certain cases..if this is in the wrong section i apologise - this is just something i found interesting.iv seen online a lot that say the watchtower and tract society "invented" the link between proverbs 8:22 - 30 and jesus (the word).

yet interestingly some "mainstream" "trinitarian- aimed" translations are cross referencing the following:source:https://www.biblegateway.comprov 8:22 cr rev 3:14niv, gnt,esv, nasb, nasb1995, nasbre, cevprov 8:30 cr john 1:1,2 esv nasbprov 8:30 cr john 1:3esvnasb1995nasb(this list is by no means complete)if this is simply wisdom, why is it referenced with jesus (or the word)?.

Earnest

Blotty, this doesn't actually address your question but it's interesting that the link between Proverbs 8:22 and Jesus (The Word) was already made by the Early Church Fathers.

Justin Martyr - Dialogue with Trypho, Chapter LXI

" ... that God begat before all creatures a Beginning, [who was] a certain rational power [proceeding] from Himself, who is called by the Holy Spirit, now the Glory of the Lord, now the Son, again Wisdom, again an Angel, then God, and then Lord and Logos;"

Tertullian - Against Praxeas, Chapter VI

The Word of God is Also the Wisdom of God. The Going Forth of Wisdom to Create the Universe, According to the Divine Plan.

Origen - On Principles, Book I: Chapter 2:1

For He is termed Wisdom, according to the expression of Solomon: “The Lord created me—the beginning of His ways, and among His works, before He made any other thing; He founded me before the ages. In the beginning, before He formed the earth, before He brought forth the fountains of waters, before the mountains were made strong, before all the hills, He brought me forth.” He is also styled First-born, as the apostle has declared: “who is the first-born of every creature.” The first-born, however, is not by nature a different person from the Wisdom, but one and the same. Finally, the Apostle Paul says that “Christ (is) the power of God and the wisdom of God.”

13

CSA and the UK Catholic Church.

by Lost in the fog in

the comments underneath the article are almost as interesting as the article.. .

https://mercatornet.com/secrecy-confession-england-wales/81615/.

Earnest

slimboyfat, the policy is to "instruct the elders to report the matter if a minor is still in danger of abuse or there is some other valid reason".

My point in my previous post was that both the 2022 Independent Inquiry into Child Sexual Abuse and the 2018 Government report recognised that appropriate action depends on the circumstances. If the circumstances are that a minor is in danger of abuse or there is some other reason it is necessary to report, then the elders are instructed to do so.

If the parents and victim have chosen not to report it, and the minor is not in danger of abuse, and there is no valid reason to report it, then there are likely to be circumstances where it is inadvisable to do so.

6

Russia's War on JWs and other Cults Intensifies.

by Lost in the fog in

what this guy publicises many russians will believe is solid truth.. i wouldn't want to be a jw in the former ussr countries these days.. https://bitterwinter.org/russia-sensational-revelations-jehovahs-witnesses-prepare-an-anti-putin-coup/.

Earnest

smiddy3, you do realise that is a quotation of anti-cult Russian lawyer, Alexander Korelov, not the sentiments of Massimo Introvigne or bitterwinter, don't you?

13

CSA and the UK Catholic Church.

by Lost in the fog in

the comments underneath the article are almost as interesting as the article.. .

https://mercatornet.com/secrecy-confession-england-wales/81615/.

Earnest

The Independent Inquiry into Child Sexual Abuse reported last month that

F.85 In the delicate balance between the need to provide an individual child with confidential advice and support (whether medical, psychological, legal or social) and ensuring child sexual abuse is prevented, it is essential to recognise that there are some circumstances where privacy ought to be protected and some where prevention is paramount.

I do not doubt that elders and the Legal Dept would find it easier if reporting was mandatory. However, as the IICSA found, there are some circumstances when that is not in the best interests of the child.

In July 2016 the UK government launched a public consultation on reporting and acting on child abuse and neglect. It concluded in March 2018 that the case for mandatory reporting had "not currently been made" and did not introduce it then. The report concludes (para.54):

What would be considered to be appropriate action under the duty to act would therefore depend on the particular circumstances of each case.

13

CSA and the UK Catholic Church.

by Lost in the fog in

the comments underneath the article are almost as interesting as the article.. .

https://mercatornet.com/secrecy-confession-england-wales/81615/.

Earnest

Jehovah's Witnesses Scripturally Based Position on Child Protection

5. When elders learn of an accusation of child abuse, they immediately consult with the branch office of Jehovah’s Witnesses to ensure compliance with child abuse reporting laws. (Romans 13:1) Even if the elders have no legal duty to report an accusation to the authorities, the branch office of Jehovah’s Witnesses will instruct the elders to report the matter if a minor is still in danger of abuse or there is some other valid reason.

50

Who will Survive Armageddon?

by Vanderhoven7 in

breaking news....there is hope for good hearted non-jws!!!.

according to sergio:.

are jehovah's witnesses the only ones to be saved during the end time?.

Earnest

Vanderhoven, perhaps I was being pedantic but I was trying to answer your question. It is not a relationship with the "Governing Body" that is required, but to support the Christian congregation (Christ's anointed "brothers"). It may be argued that you cannot support the Christian congregation without supporting the "Governing Body", and that may be true although I do not hold to that view. But I don't read anywhere in the publications that we need to have a relationship with the "Governing Body", only with the Christian congregation (Christ's anointed "brothers").

But since this teaching is analogous to the requirement of baptism (the antitypical ark), perhaps it is worth addressing the question about what happens to those who do not have a Christian baptism.

Vanderhoven7 : Where does the GB stipulate that ex-Jehovah Witnesses who are honest-hearted apostates to Jehovah's organization may survive Armageddon?

No doubt the GB considers "honest-hearted apostate" to be an oxymoron, so the literature only goes so far as to say God has committed judgment into Jesus’ hands, not ours. But perhaps I should mention I had my tongue firmly in cheek when I excepted the members of JWD from a free pass.

peacefulpete : I noticed on the WT website they revised the 1978 brochure in 1979.

Yes. They read slightly differently :

1978

No. Many millions that have lived in centuries past, who were not Jehovah’s Witnesses, will come back in a resurrection and have an opportunity for life. Many now living may yet take a stand for truth and righteousness before the “great tribulation,” and they will gain salvation. Moreover, Jesus admonished that we should not be judging one another. We tend to look on the outward appearance; God looks on the heart. He is the one who sees accurately and judges mercifully. He has committed judgment into the hands of Christ Jesus, not ours.—Matthew 7:1-5.

1979

No. Many millions that have lived in centuries past and who were not Jehovah’s Witnesses will come back in a resurrection and have an opportunity for life. Many now living may yet take a stand for truth and righteousness before the “great tribulation,” and they will gain salvation. Moreover, Jesus said that we should not be judging one another. We look at the outward appearance; God looks at the heart. He sees accurately and judges mercifully. He has committed judgment into Jesus’ hands, not ours.—Matthew 7:1-5; 24:21.

You can find it online at the link I provided - JW in the 20th century, 1979, p.29. I don't think the 1978 version is online.

50

Who will Survive Armageddon?

by Vanderhoven7 in

breaking news....there is hope for good hearted non-jws!!!.

according to sergio:.

are jehovah's witnesses the only ones to be saved during the end time?.

Earnest

Vanderhoven7 : Doesn’t the Governing Body judge peoples destiny based on their relationship to them?

No. The September 1989 article above says that "for survival ... they have to remain organized with the anointed remnant, the 'chosen ones' ...". I think most Christian religions teach baptism is necessary for salvation (1 Peter 3:21), but I wouldn't describe that as a relationship to the Governing Body. It's a "relationship" with Christ, but it's also treated as an initiation into the Christian congregation i.e. you cannot be a Christian without being baptised.

But to get to the point, the question obviously arises what happens to those who are not baptised, or who have renounced their baptism. Although Paul was pretty damning about those who renounce their faith (2 Peter 2::20.21), I think when it comes to judging people, God "has committed judgment into Jesus' hands, not ours".

I agree with TD and others that ambiguity is largely there for public consumption, but there are no clear answers as to whether those who do not accept Jesus Christ (due to genetic, family or religious background ... or just plain ignorance) will be saved.