Posts by Earnest

23

What has changed since January 2009?

by KerryKing in

hi, i was df'd in jan 09. have not been in touch much with the jws apart from a few memorials i went to.. what with all the online presence they have nowadays, it just feels like a totally different religion.

i have seen them with their tablets and phones at the hall, hardly any physical bibles or books at all, makes me think how ai (or the borg) could so easily change words and phrasing in the bible to suit them without making a big deal of it, like 'a new light' talk or wt article.

doctrinally has much changed since 2009?.

Earnest

NotFormer : Are they double dipping on the King of the North/King of the South prophecy, giving it multiple fulfilments?

Exactly. The King of the North and South were constantly changing identities in the stream of time (full details in chapter 10 of Your Will be Done on Earth, 1958, pp.220-263, and chapter 14 of Pay Attention to Daniel's Prophecy!, 1999, pp. 230-255).

Except, as we now know, between some time in the 2nd century and the second half of the 19th century when the kings vanished.

NotFormer : Would the new light have been the subject of watercooler conversations by JWs?

Yes, of those who keep pace with the chariot. There is a lot of historical trivia related to the world powers which is second nature to JWs.

NotFormer : Even that [Zenobia was King of the South] is confused: Syria is north of Israel/Judah/Judea.

Page 254 of Pay Attention to Daniel's Prophecy!, reports that :

An opportunity for Zenobia to expand her regal powers came in 269 C.E. when a pretender disputing Roman rulership appeared in Egypt. Zenobia’s army swiftly marched into Egypt, crushed the rebel, and took possession of the country. Proclaiming herself queen of Egypt, she minted coins in her own name. Her kingdom now stretched from the river Nile to the river Euphrates. It was at this point in her life that Zenobia came to occupy the position of “the king of the south.”—Daniel 11:25, 26.

So at the time Zenobia became King of the South she was queen of Egypt (south of Israel/Judah/Judea), and that is where the warfare with the King of the North (Aurelian) initially took place.

16

Elder abuser in Sunshine Coast down under (?)

by carla in

not sure if this has been posted or not, apologies if it has.

i did a quick search and did not see it.

https://archive.md/5zcdi -a sunshine coast jehovah’s witness figure accused of horrific sex crimes has been remanded in jail for fresh offences which allegedly occurred the same day he attended court.. and https://archive.md/r2o6x -a sunshine coast jehovah’s witness figure who allegedly used his position in the church to sexually assault young men has been arrested by police.

Earnest

If this newspaper account is behind a paywall it can also be read here.

The Brisbane Courier Mail of December 18, 2023 reported :

Seven witnesses will be questioned at an important hearing as court proceedings continue for a Sunshine Coast Jehovah’s Witness figure facing 50 charges including historic rape allegations.

The Mooloolaba man, who cannot be named for legal reasons, did not appear in the Maroochydore Magistrates Court on Monday, December 18, where his case was quickly adjourned until 2024.

The accused was charged in August, 2022 on 54 charges including rape, incest and torture, then was taken into custody again in September after he was charged with six additional offences.

A brief of evidence has not been completed for the six charges and the man remains remanded in custody.

Police prosecutor Jeanette Grigoris said seven witnesses will be cross-examined at a committal hearing on March 20, 2024, which is expected to take one day.

Magistrate Chris Callaghan said the man’s personal appearance would be required.

He faced court in person for the first time in person for a directions hearing on December 11, where defence counsel Remy Kurz applied for disclosure of evidence on the man’s behalf.

Throughout the duration of the hearing, the man pressed himself into the corner of the dock, turned his back or covered the side of his face as to hide himself from the public gallery.

The court heard on Monday that 45 of the 54 charges involved one alleged victim, who was related to the man, and several of the victims were in the same bible study group.

After considering the application for disclosure from Mr Kurz, magistrate Chris Callaghan ordered four of 39 items of evidence to be disclosed by prosecutions.

It was then revealed both parties had been waiting for from the church regarding the time period during which the alleged offences had occurred.

Mr Callaghan also ordered for the documents from the church to be disclosed, inspected and copied to prosecutions and the man’s law firm.

Mr Kurz said it was an “unusual case” where the alleged offences span between 2008 and 2019.

“There are numerous graphic recordings, effectively home sex videos,” Mr Kurz said.

He said the court must look “back in time” to gain insight of what would become a key issue of a trial, that being whether any of the victims had given consent.

23

What has changed since January 2009?

by KerryKing in

hi, i was df'd in jan 09. have not been in touch much with the jws apart from a few memorials i went to.. what with all the online presence they have nowadays, it just feels like a totally different religion.

i have seen them with their tablets and phones at the hall, hardly any physical bibles or books at all, makes me think how ai (or the borg) could so easily change words and phrasing in the bible to suit them without making a big deal of it, like 'a new light' talk or wt article.

doctrinally has much changed since 2009?.

Earnest

In the article "The King of the North" in the Time of the End in the May 2020 Watchtower, pp.2-7, paragraph 5 says :

At some time during the second century C.E., the true Christian congregation began to be overrun by false Christians ... From that time until the late 19th century, there was no organized group of God’s servants on earth... Why is that fact significant? It indicates that what we read about the king of the north and the king of the south could not apply to rulers or kingdoms that held power from sometime in the 2nd century to the second half of the 19th century. There was no organized group of God’s people for them to attack.*

The footnote (*) reads :

For the reason stated here, it no longer seems appropriate to list Roman Emperor Aurelian (270-275 C.E.) as a “king of the north” or Queen Zenobia (267-272 C.E.) as a “king of the south.” This updates what was published in chapters 13 and 14 of the [1999] book Pay Attention to Daniel's Prophecy! [pp.240-241]

The identification of Zenobia with the King of the South in the third century C.E. had been consistent since 1891 (in the volume Thy Kingdom Come, pp.32,33). You can read more about her in Pay Attention to Daniel's Prophecy!, pp.252-255.

23

What has changed since January 2009?

by KerryKing in

hi, i was df'd in jan 09. have not been in touch much with the jws apart from a few memorials i went to.. what with all the online presence they have nowadays, it just feels like a totally different religion.

i have seen them with their tablets and phones at the hall, hardly any physical bibles or books at all, makes me think how ai (or the borg) could so easily change words and phrasing in the bible to suit them without making a big deal of it, like 'a new light' talk or wt article.

doctrinally has much changed since 2009?.

Earnest

Prior to the Annual Meeting in October 2012, the faithful and discreet slave was believed to consist of all those anointed on earth, collectively known as the remnant. However, at that meeting Stephen Lett discussed Who Really Is the Faithful and Discreet Slave. In the report on that meeting it said :

From 1919 on, there has always been a small group of anointed Christians at the world headquarters of Jehovah’s Witnesses. They have supervised our worldwide preaching work and have been directly involved in preparing and dispensing spiritual food. In recent years, that group has been closely identified with the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses.
The evidence points to the following conclusion: “The faithful and discreet slave” was appointed over Jesus’ domestics in 1919. That slave is the small, composite group of anointed brothers serving at world headquarters during Christ’s presence who are directly involved in preparing and dispensing spiritual food. When this group work together as the Governing Body, they act as “the faithful and discreet slave.”

1970's Russell Pyramid Photo!

by Atlantis in

jw
friends

1970's photo of the russell pyramid.

the picture was sent to us by a former bethelite who was also the person who took the picture.

of course, the pyramid is not there anymore.. .

Earnest

slimboyfat : Or am overlooking something?

I agree with you that JWs would be unlikely to feel strongly about pyramidology. However, there still exist a number of groups that split after Russell died who still follow his writings (and still print them). It could be that someone involved with them (an ex or an opposer) took out their anger on the pyramid.

9

Question on an article back in the late 90s

by greenhornet in

a "sister" that was in "truth" was a discussion one sunday at the meeting .she was in an iron lung ,anyone here might give a link.

i dont want a j dum dot com link.

just curious.. thank you .

Earnest

Vidiot : And undoubtedly horseshit, based on anecdotal evidence.

Her name, place and year of birth is provided in the article. The name of the Witness who called on her is there. The year of her dedication. The name of the person who wrote the article, who had been an attendant to her as a student nurse is provided. Her death was recorded in the Los Angeles Times. Other details of her life are confirmed on Wikitree. What more do you need to believe an account?

9

Question on an article back in the late 90s

by greenhornet in

a "sister" that was in "truth" was a discussion one sunday at the meeting .she was in an iron lung ,anyone here might give a link.

i dont want a j dum dot com link.

just curious.. thank you .

Earnest

Not Even an Iron Lung Could Stop Her Preaching

71

Rekindled Light — The Narrative Structure of the Hexaemeron (Genesis 1:1–31)

by Mebaqqer2 in

i used to comment here many years ago when i had an interest in biblical research in relation to jehovah’s witnesses.

these days my biblical research is little concerned with jehovah’s witnesses.

i feel my time is better spent researching the diachronistic development of the biblical text and ascertaining what the biblical writers and editors intended in the times in which they lived.. i have recently placed a summary diagram for a paper that i have written with original research entitled the narrative structure of the hexaemeron on academia.edu.

Earnest

Welcome back, Mebaqqer2. I remember you as a pretty good researcher.

144

Hailstone message AND everyone will be saved? Questions

by slimboyfat in

i’ve not been paying close attention to watchtower developments, but talking to a jw yesterday it occurred to me the society (yes, still use that term - old school) have been sending out mixed messages in recent years.

from what i gather, a few years ago the gb announced that during the great tribulation jws would be required to preach a “hailstone message of judgement” which involved telling people it was too late for them to repent and they were definitely going to be destroyed.

there were hints that this could be very soon, “any day now” preaching could stop and the hailstone message come in, kind of thing.

Earnest

slimboyfat : I take it that’s what Russell also taught [about the Sheep and the Goats]

No, not quite. In Pastor Russell's Sermons on The Judgment Day Pictured by Jesus (p.224) he applies the parable of the Sheep and Goats to those resurrected in the Millenial Reign :

Our text [Matthew 25:40] refers, not to Christians, but to Gentiles—the world in general. Before Messiahʹs Throne shall be gathered all people, all nations…The whole picture refers to the thousand years of the Messianic Reign, the worldʹs judgment, the worldʹs trial.

At the beginning of the article on The Parable of the Sheep and the Goats in the October 15, 1923 Watchtower, Rutherford discusses what was previously understood :

Heretofore we have applied the parable to the Millennial reign of Christ, and the final judgment of the parable to the end of that reign. Such interpretation has been difficult to harmonize. If we find objections to its application during the Millennial age, and if we find the physical facts now known to us to fit the word picture, we would be justified in concluding that we might not have heretofore had the proper interpretation.

With no disposition to criticize what has heretofore been written, we believe it profitable to consider whether or not our former application has been the right one. There seems to be a number of legitimate reasons why the parable will not be applicable at the final judgment of the Millennial reign of Christ.

So there were two changes in the understanding of the Sheep and the Goats. One in 1923 with the Millions Now Living Will Never Die teaching, and the other in the in the 1930s when the new teaching of the “great crowd” was developed.

144

Hailstone message AND everyone will be saved? Questions

by slimboyfat in

i’ve not been paying close attention to watchtower developments, but talking to a jw yesterday it occurred to me the society (yes, still use that term - old school) have been sending out mixed messages in recent years.

from what i gather, a few years ago the gb announced that during the great tribulation jws would be required to preach a “hailstone message of judgement” which involved telling people it was too late for them to repent and they were definitely going to be destroyed.

there were hints that this could be very soon, “any day now” preaching could stop and the hailstone message come in, kind of thing.

Earnest

slimboyfat : The “millions” who were expected to survive Armageddon were currently unbelievers who would accept the truth in the new world in large numbers and never die.

Yes, slim, you've got that right. In the convention at Los Angeles in August 1923 Rutherford gave a talk on the parable of the Sheep and the Goats. This was reported on in the October 15, 1923 Watchtower (pp.307-314), the sheep were identified as those in Christendom who were sympathetic towards the Bible Students and their message. It says, on p.313 :

There is a large number of people in the denominational churches and outside of them who do not claim consecration, but who now see enough of the truth to convince them that the kingdom is at hand and who rejoice in the fact that the King is here. It is not at all unreasonable to conclude that there are millions now hearing about God’s plan of salvation who will pass through the time of trouble and never die, being amongst the first that will have opportunity for a trial for life everlasting.

An additional thought has occurred to me of the importance that it is no longer necessary for unconverted relatives and friends to die before the Great Tribulation in order to live in paradise. There have been a number of cases where a JW has murdered close relatives. There seems little doubt that the perpetrator was mentally unstable, but even so the thought that he was saving them from eternal destruction (as they would get a resurrection) apparently played a part in some such cases.