Posts by Earnest

405

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

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colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

Earnest

@ aqwsed12345

Thank you for your response regarding the diversity of early Christianity. You say that "the disputes were primarily about how to articulate [Christ's] divinity within a monotheistic framework". That is true in part, but there were also disputes about adoptionism (that Jesus was just a man adopted by God), separationism (that Christ and Jesus are two different entities), docetism (that Jesus only appeared to be in the flesh) and modalism which I have already touched on. There were also differences within each group including the Logos theology. Tertullian's alignment with the Montanists was considered heretical. Origen came to be violently opposed by the fourth-century heresiologist Epiphanius. In fact, just about every ante-Nicene father was declared heretical at a later period although they were "orthodox" in their time.

When I said that claims of apostolic succession were limited "only by lack of imagination", I meant that it was not only Irenaeus and his party which claimed their predecessors (Polycarp) were taught by the apostles, but many groups including the Gnostics could also trace their predecessors back to the apostles. Whether, in fact, Polycarp did know the apostle John is discussed by Richard Carrier here, as referred to in the post from peacefulpete.

@ Sea Breeze

Unfortunately, your "single seemless [sic] tradition of solardarity [sic] among Christians" from the beginning was a piece of propaganda from Eusebius in his "Ecclesiastical History" written in the fourth century. Your cut-and-paste from the article Nine Early Church Fathers Who Taught Jesus is God does not reflect scholarship on the Apostolic Fathers which shows most evidence we have of what they wrote is very late and has been subject to revision. I am not going to respond to everything provided in a cut-and-paste, but if you wish to provide one example yourself I would be happy to let you know how accurate it is.

405

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

Earnest

Earnest : Do you think that these many groups considered themselves orthodox (i.e. representing the teachings of Christ and the apostles) or heretical?
Sea Breeze : What does that have to do with anything? Why would it matter what heretics think of themselves?

You miss my point. There was no dominant group until the fourth century and later, so the writers you are quoting from were also considered "heretics" in the second and third centuries as far as other Christian groups were concerned. The non-Jewish Logos theology did not have a monopoly at that time. Thus, for example, the Monarchians found their theology "inconsistent with monotheism". And claims of apostolic succession were so widespread they were only limited by lack of imagination.

405

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

Earnest

Sea Breeze : There have always been heretics, malcontents, and cult followers trying to infiltrate Christians since the beginning. They do not, nor have ever represented Christians. The early church elders wrote thousands of pages of information to each other to combat their influence. I own a complete set of their writings - 12 hard-bound volumes.

That the "early church elders" wrote thousands of pages to combat the influence of "heretics", shows clearly the existence of rival groups in virtually every region of Christendom of which they had knowledge. Do you think that these many groups considered themselves orthodox (i.e. representing the teachings of Christ and the apostles) or heretical? Of course, each one considered themselves orthodox and their detractors heretical. At the time of the second and third centuries there was no dominant group. Those believing in the non-Jewish Logos theology were dominant in Rome, but other groups were dominant in Edessa, Egypt, Antioch, Asia Minor and Macedonia. Eventually, the non-Jewish Logos theology acquired domination which is why you have access to their writings rather than the writings of Marcion, Valentinus and scores of others who all believed themselves to be the "orthodox" faith.

405

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

Earnest

aqwsed12345 : The use of appositional phrases like "Θεῷ Ἰησοῦ Χριστῷ" indicates that "God" and "Jesus Christ" are being identified as one entity, not as distinct.
aqwsed12345 : Modalist inscriptions or texts typically emphasize the unity of God to the exclusion of Trinitarian distinctions.

Exactly.

aqwsed12345 : While early Christianity experienced theological debates, key doctrines—such as the divinity of Christ—were widely affirmed.

This is simply nonsense. The nature of Christ and his relationship with God was a matter of contention which split early Christianity into diverse sects, each claiming their understanding was correct. The Wikipedia article on Sabellianism explains :

Monarchianism opposed the Logos-theology. As from the late second century, non-Jewish Christianity was dominated by Logos-theology which taught a two-stage existence for the Logos: He always existed inside God but became a separate Being - a distinct Reality - when God decided to create. Monarchians claimed "that the theology of the Apologists involves a division in the being and unity of God that is unacceptable" and that Logos-theology teaches two creators and two Gods (bi-theism), "inconsistent with monotheism".
In Monarchianism, "the Father and Son were different expressions of the same being, without any personal distinctions between them.

As the inscription we are talking about was in the middle of Israel, not far from Megiddo, they would have more likely been drawn to a monotheistic understanding such as Monarchianism, than the non-Jewish Logos-theology of the Apologists which developed into the trinity in the fourth century,

405

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

Earnest

aqwsed12345 :

Thank you for your exhaustive approach to this question. While the expression "God Jesus Christ" doesn't appear anywhere in scripture, the expression "Lord Jesus Christ" does.

The relevant scriptures are 1 & 2 Thessalonians 1:1. These read "... to the congregation of the Thessalonians in union with God the Father [Θεῷ Πατρὶ] and the Lord Jesus Christ [Κυρίῳ Ἰησοῦ Χριστῷ]". I note that this is grammatically identical to the expression "God Jesus Christ [Θεῷ Ἰησοῦ Χριστῷ]" in the inscription, and so agree I confused the genitive and dative of "Jesus" which can be identical.

However, this does leave us with this rather perplexing inscription which reflects a high christology that didn't exist until the fourth century. There are no other inscriptions with this wording, most use the scriptural expression "Lord Jesus Christ", not "God Jesus Christ". It could be that this small group believed in a form of modalism, like Monarchianism or Sabellianism, which taught that God and Jesus are not distinct. The more I think about the wording of the inscription, the more likely that seems. Of course, today they would be described as heretics but at that time Christianity was more fluid.

405

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

Earnest

Sea Breeze, newspaper headlines are made to draw readers, but the evidence is in front of your eyes. Either explain that "Iesou" (Ἰῦ) is not the genitive case of "Jesus", or if it is then explain how it could be translated in any way other than "God of Jesus".

405

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

Earnest

Sea Breeze, I have not read of any experts who discussed the fact that in the expression "God Jesus Christ", "Jesus" is in the genitive case, which has to mean "God of Jesus". This is Greek101, unless you can suggest an alternative translation which takes the genitive case into account there is nothing to discuss.

As for the inscription which credits Gaianus, also known as Porphyrius, a Roman centurion, for funding the mosaic as an act of generosity, this is hardly surprising as there was a Roman camp right next to the village. More than likely, in my opinion, his family lived in the village and probably attended the prayer hall. In fact, another inscription memorialises four women who may have been related to him. I certainly agree it seems members of the Roman army were allowed to be part of the Christian community (as were members of Caesar's household), but the army served in both an administrative and a military capacity so that may be reflected in the Christian position. A bit like our civil service, if I was to draw any modern comparison with their function at that time and place.

405

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

Earnest

Vienne, thanks for raising this subject again. I found the inscription very interesting and believe we should follow the truth wherever it leads. However, the inscription is quite unusual in several respects. The Israel Antiquities Authority published a report on the building - A Christian Prayer Hall of the Third Century CE at Kefar Othnay (Legio) - and there reported on the inscription, saying (p.41) "... the formula 'God Jesus Christ' is as a rule absent from Byzantine inscriptions, which always refer to the Savior as 'Lord Jesus Christ' or 'Christ our God' ".

Could it mean anything other than "God Jesus Christ" ? If we break down the nomen sacrum, they read "theo" (θῷ), in the dative case meaning "to God" or "to the God", "Iesou" (Ἰῦ), the genitive form of Jesus' name i.e. "of Jesus", and "christo" (Χῷ) which is also in the dative case and means "to Christ". So a straight-forward translation would be :

"The god-loving Akeptous has offered the table to [the] God of Jesus [and] to Christ as a memorial".

Any other translation has to account for the expression "theo Iesou" (to God of Jesus) which is certainly more in line with the christology of this period.

26

JULY 15TH STUDY EDITION :"If ever that evil slave..." page 24

by raymond frantz in

box on page 24 of the july 15th titled :"if ever the evil slave....".

jesus has placed the weightiest of responsibilities on the faithful and discreet slave-namely,overseeing the domestics and giving out spiritual food atthe proper time.

jesus knew that those with greater responsibility have greater accountability.

Earnest

Vanderhoven7 : The leaders have prematurely seized control for themselves, and consolidated that control.

The Watchtower article "Who Really is the Faithful and Discreet Slave" of July 15, 2013, discusses when the slave is appointed over all the Master's belongings. It says :

It is noteworthy that in Jesus’ illustration, the faithful and discreet slave receives two distinct appointments. The first is over the domestics; the second is over all the master’s belongings ... Note that Jesus makes the second appointment after he arrives and finds that the slave has been “doing so,” that is, faithfully dispensing spiritual food. So there would be an interval between the two appointments.
...
In view of the foregoing, what can we conclude? When Jesus comes for judgment during the great tribulation, he will find that the faithful slave has been loyally dispensing timely spiritual food to the domestics. Jesus will then delight in making the second appointment—over all his belongings. Those who make up the faithful slave will get this appointment when they receive their heavenly reward, becoming corulers with Christ.

27

BEROEAN PICKETS:- VIcky And Mike's Story. "Judged To Be Like The Antichrist "

by buzkid in

vicky and mike hobbs are ex jehovah’s witnesses and ex beroean pickets members their personal statements and experiences within the beroean pickets bible study groups wasn't pleasant.

and vicky was likened to the antichrist because of her differing views.

spiritual abuse is becoming more widespread and the purpose of this interview is to raise awareness, provide education around spiritual and religious abuse, and to keep the public safe.

Earnest

In Studies in Biblical and Christian Archaeology in Memory of Michele Piccirillo, Jerusalem, 2013, O. Gutfeld and A. Ecker write about the ancient Greek inscription shown in the video above. As regards the dating of the inscription they say (p.168) :

Partial excavation of the cistern has yielded pottery dating from the 5th to 7th or 8th century CE and from the 13th to 15th centuries CE. The ﬂat base of the letters, especially that of the sigma, hints at a date between the 7th and 8th century.This date ﬁts well with the latest evidence of Christian activity at the site (Patrich J. - Tsafrir Y. 1993. “A Byzantine Church Complex at Hor- vat Beit Loya,” in Y. Tsafrir (ed.), Ancient Churches Revealed, Jerusalem, 265).

Unfortunately a dating of late second/early third century is wishful thinking.