i was wondering today about how jw are not allowed to socialize with wordly people.
how can they judge other religions if they aren't allowed to witness religous practises other than their own?
my friend is a jw, so to better understand her religion i participated in one of her religious gatherings...yet when i invited her to my church she wasn't allowed.
I agree with you up to a point, OldHippie. I haven't given in a report for twenty years and they simply state on my card that I don't report for reasons of conscience. No problem.
However, if I regularly attended another church then I think pressure would be brought to bear. This would probably differ from congregation to congregation - some would express disapproval, others would remove "priveleges", and others would say I had disassociated myself by joining another faith.
Earnest
as most jws no longer have jesus as their mediator, how do they conclude their prayers?.
......and so, dear father, we approach you now in the name of the 144,000. amen?.
i only recently became aware of this change where jesus is mediator to just a select few.
Hi Ozzie,
I did note your quote that "most of the Christian Greek Scriptures, including the promises of everlasting life", are directed to spirit-anointed Christians. But three paragraphs further the same article says:
This hope of everlasting life, however, is not limited to those who are part of the heavenly kingdom. Not at all. In speaking about this time or the generation seeing the establishment of the Kingdom, Jesus definitely promised everlasting earthly life. This is the time for separating the “sheep” from the “goats.” (Matt. 25:31-33) And what reward did Jesus hold out for the “sheep” who help and serve with his anointed “brothers” but who are not themselves such “brothers” of Christ who have heavenly life in view? He promised that these righteous ones will enter into “everlasting life,” yes, life right here on earth. (Matt. 25:46)I do not want to suggest that I have no problems with appropriating the entire New Testament for about 8000 people on earth. Otherwise I wouldn't be here, would I. But I do find the argument that "mediator" in 1 Timothy 2 is used in a legal sense to be convincing. It hasn't altered my belief in Jesus as my mediator in every other sense and I don't see why that should change for others.
Having reviewed your previous post I note that the QFR of 15/8/89 does say:
Christendom teaches that all good people go to heaven, which unscriptural position has colored the general view, so that Jesus is considered a go-between for all such people. What, though, does the Bible indicate?It then goes on to deal with the legal sense of the word "mediator". That seems to demolish my argument. Yet it goes on to say:
The people of all nations who have the hope of everlasting life on earth benefit even now from Jesus’ services. Though he is not their legal Mediator, for they are not in the new covenant, he is their means of approaching Jehovah. Christ said: “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” (John 14:6) All who will gain life on earth must direct their prayers to Jehovah through Jesus. (John 14:13, 23, 24) Jesus also serves as a compassionate High Priest who is able to apply in their behalf the benefits of his sacrifice, allowing them to gain forgiveness and eventual salvation.—Acts 4:12; Hebrews 4:15.It sometimes seems that they deliberately obfuscate what they are teaching and are clearly responsible for the confusion. Their critics exacerbate this by mixing the legal sense of "mediator" with the common sense of the word.
A plague on both your houses.
Earnest
as most jws no longer have jesus as their mediator, how do they conclude their prayers?.
......and so, dear father, we approach you now in the name of the 144,000. amen?.
i only recently became aware of this change where jesus is mediator to just a select few.
Sorry, guys, but I just don't see the prob. This is just semantics, playing with words. If you use the expression 'go-between' instead of 'mediator' then everyone agrees he does that for all.
It's only because Timothy uses it in a different (legal) sense to that normally understood that WTS says it only applies to those in the covenant. As the QFR of 8/15/89 stated
Consequently, 1 Timothy 2:5, 6 is not using “mediator” in the broad sense common in many languages. It is not saying that Jesus is a mediator between God and all mankind. Rather, it refers to Christ as legal Mediator (or, “attorney”) of the new covenant, this being the restricted way in which the Bible uses the term. Jesus is also a corresponding ransom for all in that covenant, both Jews and Gentiles, who will receive immortal life in heaven. The apostle John referred to these at 1 John 2:2. But he indicated that others too will receive the benefit of Christ’s sacrifice: “He is a propitiatory sacrifice for our sins, yet not for ours only but also for the whole world’s.”However, I agree that the WTS has propagated the confusion that exists. I remember immediately after the 11/15/79 QFR everyone stopped using the word "mediator" in their prayers. It just vanished. And there has been unnecessary emphasis on the legal mediatorship applying only to those in the kingdom covenant. But at the same time I do think that critics have twisted this to say that Jesus is not mediator (in the general, non-legal, common sense of the word) of those outside the kingdom covenant.Those of ‘the whole world’ are all who will gain eternal life in a restored earthly paradise. Millions of such approved servants of God now have that earthly hope. They view Jesus as their High Priest and King through whom they can daily gain approach to Jehovah. They rely on Jesus’ ransom, which is available to them, just as it will be to men such as Abraham, David, and John the Baptizer when these are resurrected. (Matthew 20:28) Thus, Christ’s sacrifice will lead to everlasting life for all obedient mankind.
Earnest
i am looking for more scriptures that can prove to a jehovah witness that god is jesus, and jesus is god.i found only one verse so far in 1jo:5:20: and we know that the son of god is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his son jesus christ.
this is the true god, and eternal life.. if you know more scriptures that say directly that god is jesus please tell me the verses the jhw will see plainly that jesus is no way an angel, and he is jehovah god almighty.. my friend said if i can prove by the bible only that jesus is god he will leave the jhw society, and he will know that they are teaching lies and they would be to him a dogma religious sect.
my friend gave me a booklet called should you believe in the trinity?, and is jesus christ the almighty god.
evangelist,
It clearly is a serious thing to remove any part of the message God inspired for us. Or to add to it. Or to change it. But when we say this just what message are we referring to? Are we referring to what Mark himself wrote in Greek? Or are we referring to the Latin translation by Jerome called the Vulgate which was the accepted Bible for about a thousand years. Or are we referring to the English translation of 1611 authorised by King James? Or some other translation? I think you will agree that if we find the English translation has additional material to the earliest Greek copies we would share in the blame if we left it there. Removing it would not be cutting out scripture but cutting out words that others had previously added.
Now let's consider the textual evidence for Mark 16:9-20. The book I referred to in my earlier post, A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament, was edited by Bruce Metzger on behalf of and in cooperation with the Editorial Committee of the United Bible Societies' Greek New Testament (Kurt Aland, Matthew Black, Carlo Martini, Bruce Metzger and Allen Wikgren). I assure you these men have impeccable credentials as textual scholars.
In addition to the fact that these verses are absent from the two oldest Greek manuscripts (Sinaiticus & Alexandrinus), the Sinaitic Syriac (of the second/third century), the Old Latin ms k (of the fourth/fifth century), and the earliest Georgian manuscripts...a considerable number of manuscripts that do have this passage have scribal notes stating that older Greek copies lack it, and in other witnesses the passage is marked with asterisks to indicate a spurious addition to a document.
Internal evidence also throws doubt on the originality of these additional verses:
The vocabulary and style are not Markan. The words "does not believe", "hurt", "backed up", "accompanying", "seen", "with", "these", "go", "working with" and "later" are found nowhere else in Mark. And the word "deadly" and expression "those who had been with him", as designations of the disciples, occurs only here in the New Testament.
Further, consider the connection between verse 8 and verses 9-20. The subject of verse 8 is the women, whereas Jesus is the presumed subject in verse 9. In verse 9 Mary Magdalene is identified even though she has been mentioned only a few verses before (15:47 and 16:1). The other women are now forgotten. The use of "After he rose" and the position of "first" (in "appeared first to Mary") are appropriate at the beginning of a narrative, but ill-suited in a continuation of verses 1-8.
The Committee concludes:
"In short, all these features indicate that the section was added by someone who knew a form of Mark that ended abruptly with verse 8 and who wished to supply a more appropriate conclusion. In view of the inconsistencies between verses 1-8 and 9-20, it is unlikely that the long ending was composed ad hoc to fill up an obvious gap; it is more likely that the section was excerpted from another document, dating perhaps from the first half of the second century."Why is the ending so abrupt? Metzger suggests that three possibilities are open: (a) Mark intended to close his Gospel at this place; or (b) the Gospel was never finished; or, as seems most probable, (c) the Gospel accidentally lost its last leaf before it was multiplied by transcription.
So to put things very simply, it is clear that the earliest readers of the gospel of Mark in Greek, or of the Syriac, Latin and Georgian translations would consider anything beyond verse 8 as "adding to the Word". There are good reasons to believe they would be right.
Which is a bit disappointing. Because in most instances of fraudulent "powerful works" it is the crippled and sick and blind who are desolated when it turns out the healing is simply an illusion. But show me the preacher who will drink the poison I provide and then there will be something to believe!
Earnest
i am looking for more scriptures that can prove to a jehovah witness that god is jesus, and jesus is god.i found only one verse so far in 1jo:5:20: and we know that the son of god is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his son jesus christ.
this is the true god, and eternal life.. if you know more scriptures that say directly that god is jesus please tell me the verses the jhw will see plainly that jesus is no way an angel, and he is jehovah god almighty.. my friend said if i can prove by the bible only that jesus is god he will leave the jhw society, and he will know that they are teaching lies and they would be to him a dogma religious sect.
my friend gave me a booklet called should you believe in the trinity?, and is jesus christ the almighty god.
evangelist,
You said:
Just as people talked bad about Jesus, so will men try to talk bad about people with true powers of God on them using scriptures like Matt 7, to back up themself because there is no anointing on their life, and no signs that Jesus is in them so most people judge and say this is from the devil.It would appear that your point is that there is no evidence of Jesus in my life because I suggested that we "need to look beyond their works to what [healers] actually believed" and encouraged you to rely on scripture rather than personalities.
I hope you get my point.
That may be. But I would point out that I did not suggest that his works were from the devil. As it happens, I think the devil is given far too much credit for healings, glossolalia and the like. I believe the cause is far more natural in most cases and has to do with the power of faith although it does have elements of mass hysteria when it occurs on a large scale.
But the relevance of Smith Wigglesworth to this thread is, you imply, that his beliefs (that God is Jesus) should be given credence because of SW's powerful works. I am simply saying that those powerful works don't, in themselves, establish the truth of his beliefs. I would agree I have some doubt whether he did do everything claimed for him. I find it astounding that no-one seems to know just how many people he resurrected. Some say 12, you say more than 16, another says 20. Were there just so many that he lost count? But whether he did these things or not is no evidence that what he believed was true. Believe he raised the dead if you wish. But base your reason for faith on scripture, not on personality.
And don't go taking up any serpents or having poison as a nightcap just yet. The last twelve verses of Mark chapter 16 (vss 9-20) are absent from the two oldest Greek manuscripts (Sinaiticus & Alexandrinus), from the Old Latin codex Bobiensis, the Sinaitic Syriac manucript, and the two oldest Georgian manuscripts. In other words, they weren't written by Mark. See A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament (UBS,1971,p.122-128) for additional information.
Earnest
i am looking for more scriptures that can prove to a jehovah witness that god is jesus, and jesus is god.i found only one verse so far in 1jo:5:20: and we know that the son of god is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his son jesus christ.
this is the true god, and eternal life.. if you know more scriptures that say directly that god is jesus please tell me the verses the jhw will see plainly that jesus is no way an angel, and he is jehovah god almighty.. my friend said if i can prove by the bible only that jesus is god he will leave the jhw society, and he will know that they are teaching lies and they would be to him a dogma religious sect.
my friend gave me a booklet called should you believe in the trinity?, and is jesus christ the almighty god.
evangelist,
Hmmm...well, don't put too much stock on these "powerful works". I am sure you are familiar with Jesus' words at Matthew 7:22,23 that he will reject many who performed powerful works in his name. That is not to say that miracles are not relevant but that they can only be supplementary to doing God's will if they are to be pleasing to him.
So, if we are going to rely on "men of God that work in the power of God like Smith Wigglesworth" we do need to look beyond their works to what they actually believed. Fortunately, SW wrote a number of books and so we have a pretty good idea what he believed and taught.
He believed that all sickness was from the devil and everyone could be healed. Consequently, he taught that miraculous healing and exorcism should be practiced instead of medicine.
However, despite the claims made for him he was unable to help many who were close to him -
Mary Boddy, the woman who laid hands on Wigglesworth in 1907 when he was 'baptized in the Spirit', spent the last sixteen years of her life as an invalid.
His wife, Polly, became sick and died in 1913 while still quite young.
His youngest son, George, died two years later.
His daughter, Alice Salter, frequently traveled with him after his wife's death. Alice was deaf and was never healed.
Smith also had his share of disease including kidney stones, sciatica and a slight stroke (in 1944).
I am not relating this to mock the man. But I do think that others, like Roberts Liardon, have claimed more for him than he did himself and hope that presenting these facts will encourage you to rely more on scripture and avoid the snare of personalities.
Earnest
i am looking for more scriptures that can prove to a jehovah witness that god is jesus, and jesus is god.i found only one verse so far in 1jo:5:20: and we know that the son of god is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his son jesus christ.
this is the true god, and eternal life.. if you know more scriptures that say directly that god is jesus please tell me the verses the jhw will see plainly that jesus is no way an angel, and he is jehovah god almighty.. my friend said if i can prove by the bible only that jesus is god he will leave the jhw society, and he will know that they are teaching lies and they would be to him a dogma religious sect.
my friend gave me a booklet called should you believe in the trinity?, and is jesus christ the almighty god.
evangelist,
In your previous post you asked the question "who is deceived".
When I presented evidence that the congregants of the Embassy Christian Centre and the students at Spirit Life Bible College, both headed by Roberts Liardon, had been deceived by him you suggest I am at fault "looking for false things and can`t wait to judge and show my own pride that I am better or perfect".
I assure you I was not looking for false things. I was interested in the source of your reference to Smith Wigglesworth who raised "more than 16 people from the dead". Frankly, I did expect to find some evidence of exaggeration and was not disappointed. Did you know that he [Liardon] also wrote a book We Saw Heaven and claims he was transported to heaven and there met Jesus face to face and that he and Jesus had a water fight in the River of Life? And he saw a building up there full of unclaimed body parts because, it seems, the Smith Wigglesworths of our time are not replacing parts fast enough.
But the so-called "false things" I came across are just the tip of the iceberg. Does it not occur to you that there is some reason "one-quarter of Embassy members, as well as Bible college students and missionaries, have left the church since Liardon's admission". Do you really think Jimmy Swaggart is an endorsement for this kind of behaviour??? I am reminded of the scripture "God is not one to be mocked..."
Earnest
how many poor gullible farmers paid extra for charles russells miracle wheat, only to find out that it performed no better, and more than likely, worse than many other less expensive varieties of wheat?.
how many egyptians used feet and inches to measure the pyramids centuries or millennia before such a system was invented?.
how many witnesses read the stone bible.. how many planets in how many galaxies did god look at before deciding to live on alcyone in the pleiades constellation?.
Excellent questions and a great icon, CPiolo. And, of course, it is the minority who have ever examined themselves, their beliefs, their worldview and tried to find out what parts and/or aspects are incorrect.
But in carrying out such an examination I wonder if I can really trust my judgement. If any of us can. When I think of the number of people who believed that the earth was flat because their reason told them that if it was round people on the other side would fall off. When I reflect on discussions of the trinity and the fact that so many mental giants not only believed but framed the teaching I wonder that my puny reason (that the trinity is not in scripture) can be correct. Or perhaps that I should follow Tertullian who believed it because it was not reasonable! Or when I reflect on current theory about the nature of time and space, on parallel universes and the fifth dimension it seems there is nothing I can rely on as fact.
I am not certain of the extent that JW thinking influences me but I not only constantly doubt what I am taught in the KH, I doubt everything. I cannot understand that most thinking people don't. So, while the answers to your questions are quite damning a similar list of questions could be drawn up regarding any belief in God. Perhaps that is why so many who leave JW are atheist or agnostic. But can we really trust the conclusions we come to, which are just the result of some synapses connecting in the brain?
I don't have an answer to that. Only that I envy people with a simple faith who wouldn't even consider these questions. But I am not of them and never can be.
Earnest
i am looking for more scriptures that can prove to a jehovah witness that god is jesus, and jesus is god.i found only one verse so far in 1jo:5:20: and we know that the son of god is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his son jesus christ.
this is the true god, and eternal life.. if you know more scriptures that say directly that god is jesus please tell me the verses the jhw will see plainly that jesus is no way an angel, and he is jehovah god almighty.. my friend said if i can prove by the bible only that jesus is god he will leave the jhw society, and he will know that they are teaching lies and they would be to him a dogma religious sect.
my friend gave me a booklet called should you believe in the trinity?, and is jesus christ the almighty god.
evangelist,
Thank you for inviting us to "check these cases" to see "who is deceived". I was particularly interested in the case of Smith Wigglesworth who raised "more than 16 people from the dead" as I thought I would have heard of someone who raised more people than all those recorded in the Bible combined.
And then I came across this news item from the Los Angeles Times of Dec. 22, 2001 on Roberts Liardon who you quote on Wigglesworth
Evangelical pastor Roberts Liardon temporarily stepped down from his Irvine-based ministry this week after admitting to a "short-term inappropriate sexual relationship."The Charisma News Service of March 11, 2002 http://www.charismanews.com/online/articledisplay.pl?ArticleID=5596 reported that"As a minister of the gospel, I realize my moral failure has been inappropriate and wrong," Liardon said in a written statement. "I have asked God's forgiveness."
Pastor and writer Roberts Liardon preached yesterday at his church for the first time since he stepped down three months ago after admitting to a "moral failure." The founder of Embassy Christian Center in Irvine, Calif., gave a 30-minute message on keeping the faith. In December, Liardon confessed to a short-term homosexual relationship with the church's youth pastor, John Carrette.Of course, the lack of morality and shame are not in themselves evidence that Liardon's account of Smith Wigglesworth is without foundation. However, there is not much more documentation on these resurrections in the link you give where it says http://www.smithwigglesworth.org/bio.php"Those around me asked me to come," Liardon said yesterday. He received a 30-second standing ovation from about 650 people. Liardon, 36, told the Embassy congregation that his appearance was "just for one Sunday. I am still working with my counseling." While not addressing any specific situation, Liardon said: "(We have) gone through some great dramatics in the last few months...Our church has gone through a crisis...but it is (going to be) OK. God is in charge...He does not come to destroy. He comes to lift you."
Liardon later told "Charisma" that his counselors, particularly El Paso, Texas, pastor Charles Nieman [one of the teachers in Robert Tilton's Satellite Bible College], had encouraged him to preach, and it fit the schedule to do so at this time. Liardon made the announcements and took an offering at previous services, but yesterday's was his first sermon. About one-quarter of Embassy members, as well as Bible college students and missionaries, have left the church since Liardon's admission.
Despite the incredible revelation and faith Smith had regarding healing, he was virtually unknown outside of his hometown until he was forty-eight. The event that hurled his ministry into international recognition came in 1907 when he received the Pentecostal experience of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit by speaking in other tongues. The event happened in Sunderland under the ministry of Vicar and Mrs. Boddy. After speaking in other tongues, Smith asked to take the platform where over 50 others received the same experience and the local newspaper ran the story on the front page.Liardon gives greater detail in his book God's Generals, which is his version of the Pentecostal movement since the mid 1800s. He relates...Known for his bold and unflinching faith, Smith's healing ministry soon took him into other nations and continents. As he was becoming one of the most popular evangelists in the Pentecostal movement, his wife Polly died. Asking God to give him a double portion of the anointing, Smith began to experience phenomenal results in his meetings. Because of his aggressive faith, he was often accused of being too rough on the people he prayed for. Many times he was known to hit the sick person in the afflicted area; others who might be crippled were ordered to run after he prayed for them. Never believing that God sent him anywhere too late, Smith raised countless people from the dead and saw hopeless cases restored to new wholeness.
...one meeting when a doctor brought a cancer patient to the healer. Wigglesworth "wound up his hand and hit him where the cancer was in the stomach. He punched him so hard until the man died… and the doctor screamed, ‘You killed him!’ Wigglesworth said, ‘he’s healed.’ Ten minutes later the man got up healed.’" When critics would confront Wigglesworth and ask "why do you hit people," he would say, "I don’t hit people. I hit the devil, the people just get in the way."Doesn't that sound just like Jesus.
What you say about not needing to understand Hebrew and Greek in order to understand the Bible is quite true. But we do need to be aware that Bible translators are human and will have bias and so it would help us to understand if we compare translations when a number exist in our language (as they do in English). Personally, I believe the NWT has done truth lovers a great service as it has brought attention to the fact that English translation does not have to imitate the Authorised Version and that there are many scriptures which can be understood differently when translated with a unitarian bias.
If I understand you correctly, you are saying that your belief and understanding that "God is Jesus and Jesus is God and the Holy Spirit is God" is correct because you "have the same understanding as these men of God that work in the power of God today like Smith Wiggleworth". Those who try to understand the original languages and reach a different conclusion are "broke disgusted and busted, and still sick and depressed, argueing about theology, man made understanding, instead of the spiritual things". Unfortunately, we know very little about the power of God in Smith Wigglesworth and his performance of miracles leaves much to be desired. It may be of interest to you to read an analysis of God's Generals in the February 1999 issue of The Christian Sentinel as most of these nineteenth century pentecostalists were eccentric to say the least.
You conclude by saying that "after checking these cases some might learn to trust Jesus, and his Word the way it is", meaning the way you understand it (because you have the power of God). The truth is that after checking these cases I am more convinced that we should never be swayed by charisma, by the performing of powerful works, but by scripture alone.
Earnest
i can't believe how tardy i have been in making a contribution to the running of this site.
like the ever visiting guest who drinks all your wine, eats your steak and complains that there is no loo paper, i have posted here for over a year, whinged, whined and moaned and done absolutely nothing to support it financially.
what a wanker, eh?.
Larc,
You said "No one is forced to contribute and Simon rarely brings up the subject." and that is just the point I was making in my reference to "no collection". I was simply teasing Simon with the similarity to WT practice.
I quite agree with the sentiments expressed on this thread and have a great respect for what Simon does and the way he does it. Sorry it came over differently.
Earnest
