Posts by Earnest

19

Is Child Abuse being Hijacked ?

by Earnest in

just a question, minimus.

edited for change of subject heading: .

i have amended the subject as i agree it was inflammatory and detracted from my main concern that child abuse victims are being treated as pawns.

Earnest

Minimus and I do not know each other and this is not a joke. However, it is quite clear I am not seriously suggesting anything about Minimus except that he abuses his freedom of speech. I am also making the point that you can insinuate anything about anybody whether you have the evidence to back it up or not.

What I am serious about is that the really dreadful crime of child abuse is being hijacked in order to attack the WTS. To my mind this is simply using the victims as pawns in a bigger game. I deplore it. Certainly the WTS should be held to account, as should the Catholic church and all other groups that are reprehensible. I thought the idea of another poster that Silent Lambs should be broadened for all victims of child abuse went some way to making them the focus of our attention.

Finally, I compliment minimus in not engaging in a slinging match. As a matter of fact I have a lot of respect for many of his posts. But not his 'Jaracz - Pedophile/Rapist' post. I thought it to be an emotional abuse of free speech. So was my heading. It made the point.

Earnest

19

Is Child Abuse being Hijacked ?

by Earnest in

just a question, minimus.

edited for change of subject heading: .

i have amended the subject as i agree it was inflammatory and detracted from my main concern that child abuse victims are being treated as pawns.

Earnest

~~Just a question, minimus~~.

Edited for change of Subject Heading:

I have amended the subject as I agree it was inflammatory and detracted from my main concern that child abuse victims are being treated as pawns. It was intended to be a parody of minimus' post on Ted Jaracz and I apologise if any other impression was given.

Edited by - Earnest on 28 September 2002 17:38:25

91

A Mormon chimes in

by John Corrill in

jw
friends

john corrill here from the ex-mormon board.

i've found your forum interesting.

mormons and ex-mormons struggle with many of the same things jw's do.

Earnest

There's a lot more information on the LDS teaching of the mark of Cain at http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/changech10a.htm#Descendants%20of%20Cain%20Through%20the%20Flood. But in order to understand why they were not permitted to become priests it's necessary to understand the doctrine of pre-existence.

As Tanner (an ex-mormon and critic of the LDS) explains:

One of the basic doctrines of the Mormon church is that the spirit of man existed before the world was created. From this doctrine came the idea of some spirits being more noble than others. The Mormon leaders taught that the "more noble" or choice spirits are born as Mormons. Blacks, on the other hand, were considered to have been more unfaithful in the pre-existence than any of the spirits who were allowed to take bodies. Apostle McConkie maintained that
those who were less valiant in pre-existence and who thereby had certain spiritual restrictions imposed upon them during mortality are known to us as the Negroes. Such spirits are sent to earth through the lineage of Cain, the mark put upon him for his rebellion against God and his murder of Abel being a black skin (Mormon Doctrine, pp.476-77).
Mormon historian B.H. Roberts asserted that in the pre-existence the Negroes
through their indifference or lack of integrity to righteousness, rendered themselves unworthy of the Priesthood and its powers, and hence it is withheld from them to this day (The Contributor, vol. 6, pp.296-97).
Apostle Mark E. Petersen presented the Mormon thinking concerning the doctrine of pre-existence:
Is there reason then why the type of birth we receive in this life is not a reflection of our worthiness or lack of it in the pre-existent life? ... can we account in any other way for the birth of some of the children of God in darkest Africa, or in flood-ridden China, or among the starving hordes of India, while some of the rest of us are born here in the United States? We cannot escape the conclusion that because of performance in our pre-existence some of us are born as Chinese, some as Japanese, some as Latter-day Saints. These are rewards and punishments, fully in harmony with His established policy in dealing with sinners and saints, rewarding all according to their deeds....
Let us consider the great mercy of God for a moment. A Chinese, born in China with a dark skin, and with all the handicaps of that race seems to have little opportunity. But think of the mercy of God to Chinese people who are willing to accept the gospel. In spite of whatever they might have done in the pre-existence to justify being born over there as Chinamen, if they now, in this life, accept the gospel and live it the rest of their lives they can have the Priesthood, go to the temple and receive endowments and sealings, and that means they can have exaltation. Isn't the mercy of God marvelous?
"Think of the Negro, cursed as to the priesthood.... This Negro, who, in the pre-existence lived the type of life which justified the Lord in sending him to the earth in the lineage of Cain with a black skin, and possibly being born in darkest Africa--if that Negro is willing when he hears the gospel to accept it, he may have many of the blessings of the gospel. In spite of all he did in the pre-existent life, the Lord is willing, if the Negro accepts the gospel with real, sincere faith, and is really converted, to give him the blessings of baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost. If that Negro is faithful all his days, he can and will enter the celestial kingdom. He will go there as a servant, but he will get celestial glory
(Race Problems--As They Affect The Church, Address by Mark E. Petersen at the Convention of Teachers of Religion on the College Level, delivered at Brigham Young University, Provo, Utah, August 27, 1954).

Of course this doctine of the mark of Cain is not unique to the LDS although the reason for it is. In South Africa this teaching was propogated by the Dutch Reformed Church and used to bolster the ideology of apartheid. Many other churches also taught this in less politically correct times.

Earnest

2

The Third Reich and JW

by Earnest in

i have recently purchased a small book entitled "the third reich and the christian churches" which is "a documentary account of christian resistance and complicity during the nazi era".

interesting reading.. one extract is taken from the book "kirchenkampf in deutschland 1933-1945" (friedrich zipfel, berlin, 1965, pp.527-533) which records the trial of fourteen jws before the berlin supreme court in november 1944:.

the writing, 'look the facts in the face' [probably 'face the facts', printed in 1938], has the impertinence to launch vicious attacks on the leadership of the national socialist state.

Earnest

Thanks for your thoughts, Old Hippie. I certainly agree that most Witnesses have no desire to be martyrs. I am not so certain about Rutherford who stirred persecution in the United States by blitzing towns where JWs had been arrested. The book "Jehovah's Witnesses - Proclaimers of God's Kingdom" recalls the strategy:

*** jv 692 30 'Defending and Legally Establishing the Good News' ***

Although the individual congregations of Jehovahs Witnesses were usually rather small during the 1930s, there was a strong bond among them. When there was serious trouble in any location, Witnesses from surrounding areas were eager to help. In 1933 in the United States, for example, 12,600 Witnesses were organized into 78 divisions. When there were persistent arrests in an area, or when opposers succeeded in pressuring radio stations to cancel contracts for broadcasting programs prepared by Jehovahs Witnesses, the Societys office in Brooklyn was notified. Within a week, reinforcements were dispatched to that area to give a concentrated witness.
Depending on the need, from 50 to 1,000 Witnesses would rendezvous at an appointed time, usually in the countryside near the area to be worked. They were all volunteers; some came as much as 200 miles [320 km]. Individual groups were given territory that could be covered in perhaps 30 minutes or possibly as much as two hours. As each car group began to work in its assigned section, a committee of brothers called on the police to notify them of the work being done and to provide a list of all the Witnesses who were working in the community that morning. Realizing that their own forces were overwhelmed by the sheer number of Witnesses, the officials in most places permitted the work to go on without hindrance. In some localities they filled their jail but then could do no more. For any that were arrested, the Witnesses had attorneys on hand with bail. The effect was like that of the symbolic swarm of locusts referred to in the Scriptures at Joel 2:7-11 and Revelation 9:1-11. In this way it was possible to continue preaching the good news even in the face of intense opposition.

I may well be wrong. It is true that JWs have maintained their neutrality to political ideology in South Africa and elsewhere. However, on a technical note I should clarify that there were not separate dining rooms at Bethel during the days of Apartheid - both white and black ate at the same tables. The law did not forbid eating together in private but the Group Areas Act did not allow for dwelling together. So, the black brothers who worked at Bethel (mainly as translators) had to travel in and out of Soweto (the black townships near Bethel) every day. This law also effectively segregated the congregations and conventions as black and white lived in different areas. But I take your point that they could have been provocative and were not. As it happens their neutrality did produce martyrs during the riots of 1976 and after when the black brothers in particular were between a rock (the Nationalist government) and a hard place (the various freedom movements). Neutrality was seen by both sides as support (of the enemy) by omission.

Earnest

2

The Third Reich and JW

by Earnest in

i have recently purchased a small book entitled "the third reich and the christian churches" which is "a documentary account of christian resistance and complicity during the nazi era".

interesting reading.. one extract is taken from the book "kirchenkampf in deutschland 1933-1945" (friedrich zipfel, berlin, 1965, pp.527-533) which records the trial of fourteen jws before the berlin supreme court in november 1944:.

the writing, 'look the facts in the face' [probably 'face the facts', printed in 1938], has the impertinence to launch vicious attacks on the leadership of the national socialist state.

Earnest

I have recently purchased a small book entitled "The Third Reich and the Christian Churches" which is "a documentary account of Christian resistance and complicity during the Nazi era". Interesting reading.

One extract is taken from the book "Kirchenkampf in Deutschland 1933-1945" (Friedrich Zipfel, Berlin, 1965, pp.527-533) which records the trial of fourteen JWs before the Berlin Supreme Court in November 1944:

The writing, 'Look the Facts in the Face' [probably 'Face the Facts', printed in 1938], has the impertinence to launch vicious attacks on the leadership of the National Socialist state. It argues, inter alia, thus:
Moreover, we have to face the further, undeniable fact, which stands in direct contradiction to the righteous rule of God, that there has of late appeared upon the earth a hideous monster, which - in complete disregard of the inalienable rights of man - is engaged in the rapid seizure of power and dominion over the world, in reducing men to mindless obedience and slavery. People are terrified of the monster and submit to it in craven fear....
All nations on earth have to face the same situation. Hence none of them should be prejudiced against another because of preconceptions and partisanship, because of race, nationality, or colour. God has made all nations which dwell upon the earth of one blood, and everyone has the right to the same impartial treatment.What, then, is this hideous monster? It is the totalitarian government or dictatorship, which makes the state supreme, reduces all men to mindless obedience, rules over them by arbitrary despots and forces everyone to render them unconditional obedience. This monster is, therefore, a deceitful aping of God's righteous rule...

Now I realise I have left the thread wide open for comments on how the WTS are themselves that monster but my interest goes beyond that. We would probably agree with the booklet's description of National Socialism and applaud the JWs who would have no share of it. And the publicity given to the situation in Germany doubtless informed many in the US and Europe who were ignorant of the true nature of Nazism at that time. But I do wonder if there was not also an intention to stir further persecution in Germany which could only strengthen the entire brotherhood. If one reads what "The Finished Mystery" said about war when it was published in 1917 it is no surprise that Rutherford et al. were imprisoned for sedition. But this being so he must surely have been aware that Hitler would react by intensifying persecution (which, indeed, he did).

Was this a courageous exposure of the threat of Nazism, or was it intended to provoke a reaction and create martyrs for the faith. What do you think?

Earnest

91

A Mormon chimes in

by John Corrill in

jw
friends

john corrill here from the ex-mormon board.

i've found your forum interesting.

mormons and ex-mormons struggle with many of the same things jw's do.

Earnest

Susan:

Thank you for your post in which you clarified some of the beliefs of the

LDS. However, there are a couple of points you mention which I don't quite

understand.

You say:

Someone asked, "Have you seen any black Elders???" Yes. I have. And black
High Priests, black Temple workers, black Stake Presidents, black
missionaries, black Relief Society Presidents. Some congregations in
places like Uganda are entirely black simply because there aren't any
white members living within the Ward boundaries. So this is a total
non-issue.

I understood that prior to the civil rights movement in the States no

black person could hold the priesthood? And if they weren't members of

the priesthood, they couldn't hold any church office, could they? Wasn't

it only in 1978 that God "revealed" a change in policy which was more

politically correct?

No, we didn't make our own Bible. We use the standard King James.

Didn't Joseph Smith translate the Bible himself which was published by

his wife and son in 1867 after they split with Brigham Young. And doesn't

the King James version you publish include Joseph Smith's translation in

the footnotes and appendix (since 1979)?

No we are not "shady" with our true beliefs when dealing with converts.

Hmmmmm.

Earnest

Edited by - Earnest on 25 September 2002 22:6:19

49

God is editor of the WT

by Earnest in

jw
friends

in an earlier thread reference was made to a court case in which fred franz stated that jehovah god was editor of the "watch tower".

as this quotation is often used to support the allegation that jws believe the wt is inspired of god i thought it would be of wider interest to provide the relevant court record for general consideration.. the court case itself was in 1940 and was olin moyle against fred franz and others and the wtbts.

just so that you know who is who, hayden covington was attorney for the defendants and walter bruchhausen was attorney for the plaintiff.

Earnest

cellomould:

You asked:

To what extent do you consider Paul's letters inspired? He didn't seem to claim such inspiration. Wouldn't he have said 'God does not desire women to be teachers' (rather than 'I') ?

I agree that at the time Paul wrote he was probably not thinking that his letters would be part of the NT. They all thought the end was so close I am sure what was written was for immediate instruction only (with the possible exception of Revelation). But when the end did not come they had to maintain their faith with what they had left. We have more of Paul than anyone else because Paul wrote more and encouraged the congregations to share his letters. If printing had been invented he would surely have started a printing works.

I believe this is another instance of Jehovah using someone because "they were at the right place at the right time". I am not convinced he was inspired in the sense that God predetermined everything he wrote to the congregations. He does sometimes distinguish between what is his opinion and what is "from the Lord" (1 Cor.7:25). So he was aware some of what he wrote was directly from God. Some was not. Perhaps the rest was only inspired in the sense that Paul based it on already existing scriptural principles. Or on things that Jesus had said. But at the end of the day I choose to think that God is not so slapdash that it is a matter of luck what instruction became part of scripture.

I am aware of the weakness of saying it is scripture because it is in the Bible. A rather circular argument. But the Bible canon is now a fait accompli and as with much else in a religious community, you either take it or leave it.

Earnest

Edited by - Earnest on 24 September 2002 19:22:34

95

All UK CO's and DO's recalled to London Bethel

by Jim Dee in

jw
friends

an emergency meeting has been called by jack dowson at london bethel.

all co's and do's were recalled yesterday and are meeting at 2pm today in bethel (most have left the visiting congregations in limbo.

the meeting is today(starts at 2pm), tomorrow and finishing on friday at 12 noon.

Earnest

mouthy:

At the beginning of this thread you asked me to comment because you thought I was "in the know". I am not "in the know" in any sense but chose not to reply because my personal impression was that JD was trolling. When I saw you in "chat" I mentioned this out of courtesy as I did not want you to think I was ignoring you. I have no evidence that JD is trolling other than my personal impression, which I have not had reason to revise, but had no intention to make an issue out of it in public or in private.

Earnest

18

he who is sinless cast the first stone

by eisenstein in

jw
friends

does anyone know why the new world translation omits john 8:1-11?

john 8:1 - but jesus went to the mount of olives.

2- at daybreak, however, he again presented himself at the temple, and all the people began coming to him, and he sat down and began to teach them.

Earnest

DJ:

I always liked that story. I hope it really happened.

It may well have done although it seems quite conclusive that John did not record it. Bruce Metzger also said of this passage ("A Textual Commentary on the Greek NT", pp.220,221):

At the same time the account has all the earmarks of historical veracity. It is obviously a piece of oral tradition which circulated in certain parts of the Western church and which was subsequently incorporated into various manuscripts at various places.

As a matter of interest several manuscripts suggest that when Jesus wrote on the ground he wrote "the sins of every one of them". That would surely give any accuser cause to pause but I don't agree there were any ulterior motives in excluding this from the NWT. It was simply sticking to what was written.

Earnest

18

he who is sinless cast the first stone

by eisenstein in

jw
friends

does anyone know why the new world translation omits john 8:1-11?

john 8:1 - but jesus went to the mount of olives.

2- at daybreak, however, he again presented himself at the temple, and all the people began coming to him, and he sat down and began to teach them.

Earnest

eisenstein:

There is a footnote in the NWT on this passage which states that :

"Manuscripts Aleph B Sy s omit [7:53 to 8:11].

Futher information can be found in the book "A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament" (United Bible Societies, 1971, pp.219,220) where Bruce Metzger comments:

The evidence for the non-Johannine origin of the pericope of the adulteress [John 7:53-8:11] is overwhelming. It is absent from such early and diverse manuscripts as p 66,75 Aleph B L N T W X Y Delta Theta Psi 053 0141 0211 22 33 124 157 209 565 788 828 1230 1241 1242 1253 2193 al. Codices A and C are defective in this part of John, but it is highly probable that neither contained the pericope, for careful measurement discloses that there would not have been space enough on the missing leaves to include the section along with the rest of the text. In the East the passage is absent from the oldest form of the Syriac version (syr c,s and the best manuscripts of syr p ) as well as from the Sahidic and the sub-Achmimic versions and the older Bohairic manuscripts. Some Armenian manuscripts and the Old Georgian version omit it. In the West the passage is absent from the Gothic version and from several Old Latin manuscripts (it a,l *,q ). No Greek Church Father prior to Euthymius Zigabenus (twelfth century) comments on the passage, and Euthymius declares that the accurate copies of the Gospel do not contain it.
When one adds to this impressive and diversified list the consideration that the style and vocabulary of the pericope differ noticeably from the rest of the Fourth Gospel, and that it interrupts the sequence of 7:52 and 8:12ff., the case against it being of Johannine authorship appears to be conclusive.

Earnest