according to john 1:1, jesus is god.
how do jehovah's witnesses rationalize that blatant statement of jesus' deity?
You may find the article Revisiting the Colwell Construction in Light of Mass/Count Nouns at http://www.bible.org/docs/nt/topics/colwell.htm will enhance your understanding of Colwell's Rule which many cite with a dogmatism completely alien to Colwell himself.
Earnest
i am having great trouble with distinguishing between where the nwt refers to jehovah in the nt and where it should really read lord meaning, not god, but the lord; jesus.
the problem comes to light in a passage quoted in this weeks watchtower study.. the passage in question was romans 14:8, though you really have to read verse 9 as well to a better flavour of what paul was talking about.. in the nwt, the passage reads;.
9. for to this end christ died and came to life again, that he might be lord over both the dead and the living.. other translations, which do not attempt to substitute gods name, render the passage along the lines of;.
Hi Craig,
Good to have the two of you back, and none the worse for wear.
I would suggest that translation is a science, not an act of faith, and so whether or not God's name is included should be a matter of textual criticism (establishing what was written when we do not have the original writings) and not an assumption of what God wants.
I agree it would have been much clearer if Almighty God had seen to it that His Name was preserved in at least a few of the extant Greek NT manuscripts. It would also have been clearer if he had preserved at least a few of the original writings. But, as far as we know, he didn't. Does that mean it doesn't matter to him ? He has allowed (and sometimes endorsed) genocide many times over. Does that mean pain and suffering don't matter to him ? I have no satisfying answer to these questions but simply suggest that we cannot always read into what God wants by what he allows.
Earnest
i am having great trouble with distinguishing between where the nwt refers to jehovah in the nt and where it should really read lord meaning, not god, but the lord; jesus.
the problem comes to light in a passage quoted in this weeks watchtower study.. the passage in question was romans 14:8, though you really have to read verse 9 as well to a better flavour of what paul was talking about.. in the nwt, the passage reads;.
9. for to this end christ died and came to life again, that he might be lord over both the dead and the living.. other translations, which do not attempt to substitute gods name, render the passage along the lines of;.
It may be helpful to provide some more information about these scribal alterations as they might otherwise seem quite random and capricious. The Jewish scribes took great pains to transcribe the Law and the Prophets accurately but they did make some changes to the text. This was done where they believed they were correcting errors previously made, to clarify the intention of the scriptures, and to show greater respect for the divine name.
However, in order that the original text was not lost they kept records of these changes in what is known as the Massorah. The Companion Bible says of the Massorah (see Appendix 30 at http://www.levendwater.org/companion/frameset.htm?index.html&inhoudsopgave.htm) :
All the oldest and best manuscripts of the Hebrew Bible contain on every page, beside the Text (which is arranged in two or more columns), a varying number of lines of smaller writing, distributed between the upper and lower margins. This smaller writing is called the Massorah Magna or Great Massorah, while that in the side margins and between the columns is called the Massorah Parva or Small Massorah.
"The word Massorah is from the root masar, to deliver something into the hand of another, so as to commit it to his trust. Hence the name is given to the small writing referred to, because it contains information necessary to the Massorites (those into whose trust the Sacred Text was committed), so that they might transcribe it, and hand it down correctly.
The divine name was substituted under the following conditions :
All the verses you refer to are included in the 134 emendations of the sopherim (see Appendix 32 at http://www.levendwater.org/companion/frameset.htm?index.html&inhoudsopgave.htm) :
Daniel 9:3 "And I proceeded to set my face to Jehovah God..."
Daniel 9:9 "To Jehovah our God belong the mercies and the acts of forgiveness, for we have rebelled against him."
Daniel 9:15 "And now, O Jehovah our God...we have sinned, we have acted wickedly."
Psalm 38:15 "...You yourself proceeded to answer, O Jehovah my God."
Psalm 86:12 "I laud you, O Jehovah my God..."
Psalm 90:17 "And let the pleasantness of Jehovah our God prove to be upon us..."
The remaining instances are :
Genesis 18: 3,27,30-32 ; 19: 18 ; 20: 4 .
Exodus 15: 17; Joshua 7: 8; I Kings 3: 10,15 ; 22: 6; Ezra 10: 3; Nehemiah 1: 11 ; 4: 14; Job 28: 28 .
Psalm 2: 4 ; 16: 2 ; 22: 30 ; 30: 8 ; 35: 17,22,23 ; 37: 13 ; 39: 7 ; 40: 17 ; 44: 23 ; 51: 15 ; 54: 4 ; 55: 9 ; 57: 9 ; 59: 11 ; 62: 12 ; 66: 18 ; 68: 11,17,19,22,26,32 ; 73: 20 ; 77: 2,7 ; 78: 65 ; 79: 12 ; 89: 49,50 ; 110: 5 ; 130: 2,3,6 .
Isaiah 6: 11 ; 7: 20 ; 8: 7 ; 9: 8,17 ; 10: 12 ; 11: 11 ; 21: 6,8,16 ; 28: 2 ; 29: 13 ; 30: 20 ; 37: 24 ; 38: 14 , 16 ; 49: 14 .
Lamentations 1: 14,15 (twice) ; 2: 1,2,5,7,18,19,20 ; 3: 31,36,37,58 .
Ezekiel 18: 25,29 ; 21:9; 33: 17,20; Daniel 1: 2; Amos 5: 16 ; 7: 8; Micah 1: 2; Zechariah 9: 4; Malachi 1: 12,14 .
There are also eight instances where the scribes substituted the divine name with 'God'.
They are:
Psalm 14:1,2,5; 53:1,2,4,5,6.
So I would still maintain that you do not get the expression "Lord God" in the OT, at least not before it was altered. Hope this helps to explain why.
Earnest
Edited by - Earnest on 28 December 2002 22:8:25
i am having great trouble with distinguishing between where the nwt refers to jehovah in the nt and where it should really read lord meaning, not god, but the lord; jesus.
the problem comes to light in a passage quoted in this weeks watchtower study.. the passage in question was romans 14:8, though you really have to read verse 9 as well to a better flavour of what paul was talking about.. in the nwt, the passage reads;.
9. for to this end christ died and came to life again, that he might be lord over both the dead and the living.. other translations, which do not attempt to substitute gods name, render the passage along the lines of;.
This verse is one of the 134 alterations to the divine name by Jewish scribes. The best and early MSS read "I set my face to Jehovah God..." These alterations are listed in The Massorah, by C. D. Ginsburg (New York, 1975, Vol. I, pp.25,26).I just found an OT Scripture where the phrase "Lord God" is used ("Adonay Elohim"):
Daniel 9:3: I set my face to the Lord God, to seek by prayer and petitions, with fasting and sackcloth and ashes.
Appendices on the Massorah and the Sopherim at http://www.levendwater.org/companion/frameset.htm?index.html&inhoudsopgave.htm also provide corroboration.
Edited by - Earnest on 28 December 2002 22:3:40
i am having great trouble with distinguishing between where the nwt refers to jehovah in the nt and where it should really read lord meaning, not god, but the lord; jesus.
the problem comes to light in a passage quoted in this weeks watchtower study.. the passage in question was romans 14:8, though you really have to read verse 9 as well to a better flavour of what paul was talking about.. in the nwt, the passage reads;.
9. for to this end christ died and came to life again, that he might be lord over both the dead and the living.. other translations, which do not attempt to substitute gods name, render the passage along the lines of;.
Hi UnD,
I would love to hear an explanation of how Jesus can be "He who searches the minds and hearts" when the Old Testament says that Jehovah Only is the One who searches the hearts of men, unless Jesus is God.
In fact, the Old Testament says that Jehovah Only is the One who knows the hearts of men, so that does not in itself preclude others from searching their hearts. But, more to the point, Solomon did not know of Jesus, nor that Jehovah would commit all judging to the Son (John 5:22), when he said "you [Jehovah] alone know the heart of the sons of mankind" in his prayer of dedication. Likewise, Peter was not stating an absolute truth when he said "Lord, you know all things..." (cp. Matthew 24:36), he was speaking of Jesus knowing that Peter loved him. That having been said I must add that I will not support a further discussion of the trinity on this thread as the subject is one of translation, not of doctrine, and the nature of God and Christ have received exhaustive coverage on another recent thread.
The entire context of Romans 10:8-13 is talking about JESUS being LORD.
It would make no sense why the Apostle Paul would all of a sudden switch over in Romans 10:13 and start talking about the Father.
Rather, Paul was quoting Joel 2:32 and applying it to JESUS, which shows that Paul was saying that JESUS is JEHOVAH (but not the Father).
Hmmm. While I do not think that Paul was saying JESUS is JEHOVAH, I can accept that he may have been applying the principle of Joel 2:32 to Jesus. I would agree that in my mind there is sufficient doubt as to who verse 13 is referring to, to have made it unwise to use the Name in this case.
Also, you said that "Jehovah God" in Revelation is a "Hebraism".
What's your point?
Does that justify adding "Jehovah" and removing "Lord" in Revelation?
What I said in my previous post is that you do not get the expression "Lord God" in the OT whereas "Jehovah God" occurs many times. If we then find "Lord God" in the NT and we know that, although it never occurred in the OT, it was added to the Septuagint by copyists in every place where "Jehovah God" occurred, then there is good cause to restore the original expression in the NT.
I hope that I don't disappoint in that I am unwilling to argue every case where 'Jehovah' is used in the NT. I can only write on what I am convinced to be true and when we go beyond reason or scripture that doesn't amount to much.
Earnest
Edited by - Earnest on 27 December 2002 21:33:4
i am having great trouble with distinguishing between where the nwt refers to jehovah in the nt and where it should really read lord meaning, not god, but the lord; jesus.
the problem comes to light in a passage quoted in this weeks watchtower study.. the passage in question was romans 14:8, though you really have to read verse 9 as well to a better flavour of what paul was talking about.. in the nwt, the passage reads;.
9. for to this end christ died and came to life again, that he might be lord over both the dead and the living.. other translations, which do not attempt to substitute gods name, render the passage along the lines of;.
UnDisfellowshipped:
The Watchtower Society, by ADDING words to the Bible, such as "Jehovah" in the New Testament, has REALLY changed the original meaning of A LOT of Scriptures!
Of course the reasoning underlying the use of 'Jehovah' in the NT is that the writers did use the divine name but copyists later replaced it with 'Lord'. So it is a moot point as to whether or not the original meaning of the scriptures has been changed.
The Watchtower Society chose to replace the Greek word "Ku'rios" (which is translated as "Lord" or occasionally "God" in every Bible Translation except certain Verses in the NWT) with the Word Jehovah in the Verses where the Society wanted people to think that the Father was being referred to instead of Jesus.
The use of 'Lord' does not mean that it automatically refers to Jesus. It can just as easily refer to the Father depending on the context. But there are a number of scriptures (some of which you mention) where the use of 'Lord' is ambiguous. It is also worth mentioning that the replacement of the divine name with 'Lord' in the OT by other translations has allowed for ambiguity when there was definitely none in the original, and (I suggest) has contributed towards confusing the identities of Jehovah and Jesus.
Acts 1:21: Of the men therefore who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord (Ku'rios) Jesus went in and out among us,
Acts 1:22: beginning from the baptism of John, to the day that He was received up from us, of these one must become a witness with us of His resurrection."
Acts 1:23: They put forward two, Joseph called Barsabbas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.
Acts 1:24: They prayed, and said, "You, Jehovah (Ku'rios), who know the hearts of all men, show which one of these two You have chosen
Acts 1:25: to take part in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas fell away, that he might go to his own place."
Acts 1:26: They drew lots for them, and the lot fell on Matthias, and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.You notice that? The Watchtower Society INSERTS the word "Jehovah" in Acts 1:24 to make it look like the Apostles were praying to the Father, when in actuality, I believe in this Verse, that they were praying to Jesus Christ because Christ is the One who chooses His Apostles.
There are verses in the OT which speak of Jehovah knowing the heart but I would not have thought that sufficient for using the divine name. Even so, with or without the divine name I believe that 'lord' refers to the Father in this verse.
Also, why didn't they translate the Greek word "Ku'rios" as "Jehovah" in Acts 1:21? Because it referred to Jesus, and the Society would NEVER apply the Name Jehovah to Christ!
Then the verse would read:
"Of the men therefore who have accompanied us all the time that JehovahJesus went in and out among us...".
That would be plain silly. "Jehovah Jesus" is not a Hebraism. You always have to consider the immediate context of the verse when deciding on translation and in this case I suggest there is no support for it.
Acts 8:25: They therefore, when they had testified and spoken the word of Jehovah (Ku'rios), returned to Jerusalem, and preached the gospel to many villages of the Samaritans.
Acts 8:26: But an angel of Jehovah (Ku'rios) spoke to Philip, saying, "Arise, and go toward the south to the way that goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza. This is a desert."
The "word of Jehovah" (verse 25) and the "angel of Jehovah" (verse 26) are Hebraisms. See my previous post.
Acts 13:47: For so has Jehovah (Ku'rios) commanded us, saying, 'I have set you as a light for the Gentiles, That you should bring salvation to the uttermost parts of the earth.'"
Isaiah 49:6
Romans 10:8: But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth, and in your heart;" that is, the word of faith, which we preach:
Romans 10:9: that if you will confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord (Ku'rios), and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.(NOTICE -- Why doesn't that Verse say "confess with your mouth that Jesus is Jehovah"?)
There is no reason to use 'Jehovah' in this verse and the context is against it.
Romans 10:10: For with the heart, one believes unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Romans 10:11: For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes in him will not be disappointed."
Romans 10:12: For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord (Ku'rios) is Lord (Ku'rios) of all, and is rich to all who call on him.
Romans 10:13: For, "Whoever will call on the name of Jehovah (Ku'rios) will be saved."
Joel 2:32
1st Thessalonians 4:15: For this we tell you by the word of Jehovah (Ku'rios), that we who are alive, who are left to the coming of the Lord (Ku'rios), will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep.
1st Thessalonians 4:16: For the Lord (Ku'rios) himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with God's trumpet. The dead in Christ will rise first,
1st Thessalonians 4:17: then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord (Ku'rios) in the air. So we will be with the Lord (Ku'rios) forever.
1st Thessalonians 4:18: Therefore comfort one another with these words.
"word of Jehovah" is a Hebraism. See my previous post.
Revelation 1:7: Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, including those who pierced him. All the tribes of the earth will mourn over him. Even so, Amen.
Revelation 1:8: "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says Jehovah (Ku'rios) God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."Revelation 22:6: He said to me, "These words are faithful and true. Jehovah (Ku'rios) God of the spirits of the prophets sent his angel to show to his bondservants the things which must happen soon."
"Jehovah God" is a Hebraism. See my previous post.
Revelation 22:20: He who testifies these things says, "Yes, I come quickly." Amen! Yes, come, Lord (Ku'rios) Jesus.
Revelation 22:21: The grace of the Lord (Ku'rios) Jesus Christ be with all the saints. Amen.
"Jehovah Jesus" is not a Hebraism.
seems that the page view out number the posters who actually reply to the thread.. my guess is that there's alot of active jws who are still active within' the so called "truth" are visiting this forum and reading all the threads.
i don't blame them for not wanting to reply for fear of being found out.. how many of you were still active when you found a forum like this one and lurked around for a long time?
how many of you left the organization as a result of reading this forum or other forums like it?.
Simon,
The last two are false - they believed he would come (they waited on the bridge in white sheets one day) and the 1914 date was combined much later (in the late 20's).
Do you have a reference for the first of the above? I have always been under the impression that the "invisible presence" was originally thought to be true of 1874 and then 1878 which would place it some time before the beginning of the WTBTS.
Thanks,
Earnest
i am having great trouble with distinguishing between where the nwt refers to jehovah in the nt and where it should really read lord meaning, not god, but the lord; jesus.
the problem comes to light in a passage quoted in this weeks watchtower study.. the passage in question was romans 14:8, though you really have to read verse 9 as well to a better flavour of what paul was talking about.. in the nwt, the passage reads;.
9. for to this end christ died and came to life again, that he might be lord over both the dead and the living.. other translations, which do not attempt to substitute gods name, render the passage along the lines of;.
Craig, the problem that we have in identifying references to the Hebrew scriptures is that it is not always clear which scripture is referred to and, in fact, whether there is a reference at all because it is not specified. This can be just as true today in conversation or correspondence where you might quote a few words which your audience would recognise - "bad association...", "do not forsake...", "the fruits of the spirit..." - and we know what it says and where it comes from. There is good reason to believe that the Jews committed a large amount of scripture to memory (and in fact there are various mnemonic aids, particularly in Psalms) and so would have been aware when scripture was alluded to. There is an additional problem in identifying the reference because it is clear they were not always using the Hebrew scriptures which we use. Often they were quoting from the Septuagint of which there were diverse copies. And a consideration of the Dead Sea Scrolls shows there was diversity there too (e.g. some extra psalms).
Whether or not it is correct to use the divine name in the NT is not clear-cut. I don't think there can be criticism of those who do not use it as there are no extant manuscripts containing it. On the other hand it is clear that the divine name was replaced with 'lord' in the Septuagint in the first and/or second century AD and so it is not unreasonable to contend that was also true of the NT. So, when considering the verses that may have been affected we have to look at the instances where 'lord' definitely refers to Jehovah, where the OT is quoted or alluded to, and where Hebraisms are used which contain the divine name in the OT.
Using the information from The Tetragrammaton and the Christian Greek Scriptures (which can be downloaded from the link Moxy gave) I would like to consider the info you provided in greater depth.
says (pp. 20-21) (bold added):The Divine Name in the New World Translation
"The table lists only 78 instances (or 76 when the 1 Peter references are omitted) in which a Christian Scripture quotation can be traced directly to a Hebrew Scripture reference.
In addition to these , The Tetragrammaton and the Christian Greek Scriptures (T&CGS) lists the following 26 places where "Jehovah" is based on a Hebrew Scripture quotation using the divine name:
Matthew 4:4.................Deuteronomy 8:3
Luke 1:17.....................Isaiah 40:3
Luke 1:76.....................Malachi 3:1
John 6:45......................Isaiah 54:13
Acts 2:39.......................Joel 2:32
Acts 7:33.......................Exodus 3:5
Romans 4:3....................Genesis 15:6
Romans 10:13................Joel 2:32
2 Corinthians 3:16...........Exodus 34:34
Galations 3:6...................Genesis 15:6
Colossians 3:16..............1 Chronicles 16:23
1 Thessalonians 5:2.........Zephaniah 1:14
2 Thessalonians 2:2.........Zephaniah 1:14
Hebrews 2:13................Isaiah 8:18
James 2:23 (1st ref.).......Genesis 15:6
James 3:9.......................Psalm 34:1
James 5:11.....................Job 42:10
James 5:11.....................Psalm 103:8
James 5:15.....................Hosea 6:11
2 Peter 2:9.....................Psalm 34:19
Jude 9............................Zechaiah 3:2
Jude 14..........................Deuteronomy 33:2
Revelation 1:8................Isaiah 48:12
Revelatin 4:8..................Isaiah 6:3
Revelation 15:3..............Psalm 111:2
Revelation 22:5..............Isaiah 60:19
To these I would add:
Luke 1:68.....................Psalm 72:18
So, that brings our total to 105 in terms of direct evidence where the NWT NT could properly use "Jehovah."
In addition to these, T&CGS lists the following 9 places where "Jehovah" is based on a quotation which refers to the divine name although it is not found in the Hebrew Scripture verse per se.
An example of this is Acts 7:31,32 which is quoting from Exodus 3:6 and it says "But as he [Moses] was approaching to investigate, Jehovah's voice came, 'I am the God of your forefathers...' ". Exodus 3:6 actually says "And he went on to say: 'I am the God of your father...' " but verse 7 continues "And Jehovah added..." so it refers to the divine name.
Other similar verses are:
Acts 13:47....................Isaiah 49:6
1Corinthians 10:9..........Numbers 21:6
1 Corinthians 10:22.......Deuteronomy 32:21
2 Corinthians 6:18.........Isaiah 43:6
Hebrews 8:2.................Exodus 25:9
James 2:23.(2nd ref.).....Isaiah 41:8
2 Peter 3:8....................Psalm 90:4
Revelation 15:4.............Jeremiah 10:7
To these I would add:
2 Peter 3:9....................Isaiah 30:18
2 Peter 3:10,12.............Zephaniah 1:14
Now just a brief comment about Hebraisms which doubtless make up the majority of the "83 'Jehovah' references in the New World Translation Christian Scriptures were not derived from Hebrew Scripture quotations" (The Divine Name in the New World Translation, p.21).
We are accustomed to speak of the "angel of the Lord" because that is the way we hear it in nativity scenes, negro spirituals, hymn books and most bible translations. But amazingly the Hebrew scriptures never refer to the "angel of the Lord". It is always the "angel of Jehovah", "angel of God" or "angel of the true God", but predominantly "Jehovah's angel" (e.g. Numbers 22:22-27,31,32,34,35; Judges 2:1; 6:22; 13:13,15-18,20,21). So for more than a thousand years this has been a common expression. If, then, the NT suddenly starts referring to the "angel of the Lord" and there is reason to believe that elsewhere 'lord' has been substituted for 'Jehovah' I suggest that is a strong case for returning to the Hebraism. This affects nine verses - Matthew 1:20,24; 28:2; Luke 1:11; 2:9; Acts 5:19; 8:26; 12:7,23.
The same is true of the expression "the word of Jehovah". The Hebrew scriptures do not use the expression "word of the Lord" except three instances which refer to the "word of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah" (Ezekiel 6:3; 25:3; 36:4). But there are numerous references to "the word of Jehovah" (e.g. Ezekiel 1:3; 3:16; 6:1; 7:1; 11:14; 12:1,8,17,21,26; 13:1,2; 14:2,12; 15:1; 16:1,35; 17:1,11; 18:1; 20:2,45,47; 21:1,8,18; 22:1,17,23; 23:1; 24:1,15,20; 25:1; 26:1; 27:1; 28:1,11,20; 29:1,17; 30:1,20; 31:1; 32:1,17;33:1,23; 34:1,7,9; 35:1; 36:1,16; 37:4,15; 38:1). This is an expression devout Jews would be using all the time. In the NT the expression "word of the Lord/Jehovah" occurs 12 times at Acts 8:25; 12:24; 13:44,48,49; 15:35,36; 16:32; 19:20; 1 Thessalonians 1:8; 4:15 and 2 Thessalonians 3:1.
I also think a good case could be made for "glory of Jehovah" at Luke 2:9 and 2 Corinthians 3:18 (compare Exodus 16:7,10; 24:16,17; Numbers 14:10; 16:19,42; 20:6; Isaiah 35:2; 40:5; 58:8; 60:1; Ezekiel 1:28; 3:12,23; 10:4,18; 11:23; 43:4,5; 44:4), "law of Jehovah" at Luke 2:23,24,39 (compare 1 Chronicles 16:40; 22:12; 2 Chronicles 12:1; 17:9; 31:3,4; 35:26; Psalms 1:2; 19:7; 119:1) and "hand of Jehovah" at Luke 1:66; Acts 11:21 and 13:11 (compare Exodus 9:3; 13:3,9,14,16; 14:31; 15:6; 16:3; Isaiah 19:16; 25:10; 26:11; 40:2; 41:20; 51:17; 59:1; 62:3; 66:14).
In suggesting that these Hebraisms should influence translation of the NT it must be kept in mind that apart from the exception specified ("word of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah"), the expressions "word of the Lord", "glory of the Lord" and "hand of the Lord" simply do not exist in the entire OT. This alone should give pause for thought.
And, finally...compliments of the season.
Earnest
Edited by - Earnest on 26 December 2002 0:9:6
i am having great trouble with distinguishing between where the nwt refers to jehovah in the nt and where it should really read lord meaning, not god, but the lord; jesus.
the problem comes to light in a passage quoted in this weeks watchtower study.. the passage in question was romans 14:8, though you really have to read verse 9 as well to a better flavour of what paul was talking about.. in the nwt, the passage reads;.
9. for to this end christ died and came to life again, that he might be lord over both the dead and the living.. other translations, which do not attempt to substitute gods name, render the passage along the lines of;.
Jeff:
The use of Hebrew translations simply shows there are others who also use the divine name in the NT. In the discussion on the use of 'Jehovah' the explanation is given that "we have looked for agreement from the Hebrew versions to confirm our rendering". NWT, 1984, p.1565.
So the rendering isn't based on the Hebrew versions but if they concur then that is shown in the footnotes. In my opinion, the use of the Hebrew versions is misleading to the casual reader and adds very little weight to the use of the divine name.
Edited by - Earnest on 22 December 2002 18:46:10
i am having great trouble with distinguishing between where the nwt refers to jehovah in the nt and where it should really read lord meaning, not god, but the lord; jesus.
the problem comes to light in a passage quoted in this weeks watchtower study.. the passage in question was romans 14:8, though you really have to read verse 9 as well to a better flavour of what paul was talking about.. in the nwt, the passage reads;.
9. for to this end christ died and came to life again, that he might be lord over both the dead and the living.. other translations, which do not attempt to substitute gods name, render the passage along the lines of;.
Robert Countess (The Jehovah's Witnesses' New Testament) has compiled a list of occurences of "Jehovah" in the NWT Greek Scriptures (p. 104), as compared to the original Hebrew text, if applicable. The summary, for all 237 places where NWT has "Jehovah" in the NT:
39 places where "Jehovah" is based on a Tetragrammaton reading
198 places where "Jehovah" is NOT based on any relevant text.
Craig (aka 425IQL2M8IVrAYnLR/ubXQ):
Some years ago I checked each passage where the NWT uses 'Jehovah' in the NT and remember that in the majority of cases I was convinced that there was OT support for the rendering. I do not have Countess' book but have another one which is also critical of the NWT, namely The Tetragrammaton and the Christian Greek Scriptures by Lynn Lundquist. Appendix B is a Comparison of 237 "Jehovah" References and has several columns of interest.
The pertinent figures are:
92 places where "Jehovah" is based on a Hebrew Scripture quotation using the divine name.
20 places where "Jehovah" is based on a Hebrew Scripture quotation referring to the divine name.
64 places where "Jehovah" is based on a cross reference to the Hebrew Scriptures.
61 places with no quotation or reference to the Hebrew Scriptures.
While I have not checked every citation the figures look roughly correct to me and are clearly not the same as Countess. One area where they may differ is when it comes to OT expressions. Nowhere in the OT do you get the expression "angel of the Lord". It is always "angel of Jehovah" or "Jehovah's angel". So when the expression occurs in the NT there is justification for treating it the same. Similarly, you do not get the expression "Lord God" in the OT. But you do get "Jehovah God" many times. And there are others.
There are a few scriptures where I did not think the evidence justified using 'Jehovah' in the NT but in the majority of cases I have been convinced it is warranted. This evening I must finish an essay on evidence from the Jewish 'History of Jesus' (Toledoth Yeshu) that Jesus used the name.
Earnest
Edited by - Earnest on 22 December 2002 18:30:39
