Gladiator, thanks for having my back. However, I didn't take Sulla's comments as abusive. I have characterized them very forcefully in previous comments, so I am good. :)
AllTimeJeff
JoinedPosts by AllTimeJeff
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161
Theological Arguments, Human Realities
by AllTimeJeff inas i have sunken to a new low in condescending posts (according to botchtowersociety, who truthfully is an expert on all things bullshit), it did occur to me that discussions, debates, and mud slinging insult matches on this board often have a common root.. let me put out there that i am not an atheist, nor an agnostic.
frankly, i respect your right to believe that god is a trinity.
that he is jesus.
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161
Theological Arguments, Human Realities
by AllTimeJeff inas i have sunken to a new low in condescending posts (according to botchtowersociety, who truthfully is an expert on all things bullshit), it did occur to me that discussions, debates, and mud slinging insult matches on this board often have a common root.. let me put out there that i am not an atheist, nor an agnostic.
frankly, i respect your right to believe that god is a trinity.
that he is jesus.
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AllTimeJeff
Sulla, I think our conversation demonstrates the crux of why I started this particular discussion.
Theology has been around for thousands of years, yet the fruitage of it is, to be kind, below average. I allow that Christianity has morphed into a kinder, more liberal and accepting form of itself these last 200 years or so. That in of itself is a seperate discussion as to why.
I do think one reason why is that we live in the west with liberal democracies, where all are allowed to follow the dictates of their conscience, and have the freedom to explore non Christian alternatives. The focus was no longer on the theology of the church, but on the autonomy of the individual.
The Human Reality is simply that I, we, are more important then Jesus.
And I know this must be very hard to wrap your head around, but having read the bible many times, I am quite positive that Jesus wouldn't have it any other way.
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161
Theological Arguments, Human Realities
by AllTimeJeff inas i have sunken to a new low in condescending posts (according to botchtowersociety, who truthfully is an expert on all things bullshit), it did occur to me that discussions, debates, and mud slinging insult matches on this board often have a common root.. let me put out there that i am not an atheist, nor an agnostic.
frankly, i respect your right to believe that god is a trinity.
that he is jesus.
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AllTimeJeff
Sulla, as a human being, I am disappointed in your answers. For all of your brains, you certainly lack heart. I will quote you directly from your last post to me, then I am off to bed.
This is what I am disappointed in you Sulla.....
I mean to suggest that the idea of converting to the JWs has a special appeal for arrogant and lazy people; if you want to say that it also has special appeal for damaged or fragile people, I guess I wouldn't disagree.
I think people reject the Trinity because they reject the Christian claims (Jesus was raised, his death saved us) and not because they are lazy and arrogant. What I think about those who would debate the Trinity is that most who reject it are not generally competent to have the discussion.
While it is clear that you ARE competent to have a discussion on the Trinity, Christianity, Jesus, etc, you are most certainly NOT competent enough to have a discussion on the subjects that Jesus (purportedly) seemed to be more interested in dealing with. Which was the forgiveness of sins, leaving the 99 to go after the 1 (regardless of their "competence") the condemnation of the Pharisees who were more interested in their knowledge of doctrine and theology as opposed to missing the entire point of helping the lowly. No wonder Jesus said that such ones "strained the gnat but gulped down the camel."
Funny. I think when it comes to theology, most who are intellectually "competent" strain the gnat, but gulp down the camel.
I think were Jesus here, he would like to have a word or two with you and Thomas Aquinas in a room. Hopefully, if Aquinas is all you think he is, he might agree with Jesus and tell you to get over yourself on theology, the trinity, and recognize that when it comes to spirituality and god, WE PEOPLE, WE HUMAN BEINGS, are way more important then your overly intellectualized theologies.
As much as I detest what the leadership of JW's does and what it makes people do, I don't ever think that current JW's are less. I won't ever give up on them or anyone.
How can anyone claim to believe in Jesus, and yet miss the point of his gospel? Jesus would prefer to be thought of as a quadrilateral being then to give license to ANY theology which distracts all "Christians" from actually acting like a "Christian."
It simply misses the ULTIMATE point.
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161
Theological Arguments, Human Realities
by AllTimeJeff inas i have sunken to a new low in condescending posts (according to botchtowersociety, who truthfully is an expert on all things bullshit), it did occur to me that discussions, debates, and mud slinging insult matches on this board often have a common root.. let me put out there that i am not an atheist, nor an agnostic.
frankly, i respect your right to believe that god is a trinity.
that he is jesus.
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AllTimeJeff
Sulla, I find this remarkably close to the pot calling the kettle black on your part.
Thank you, Jeff. But, to clarify, I don't think I've said ex-JWs suffer from low intelligence. What I have said, and continue to hold, is that
a) The choice to become a JW is an imperfect signal of
1) intellectual laziness and
2) arrogance.
The whole reason why I questioned you in the first place about being a JW is that this is a remarkably incomplete viewpoint. I, as many here on the forum, became JW's in a flurry of teenage excitement and were baptized as minors. Speaking for me specifically, I was 13. Totally taken advantage of. While I do accept responsibility for what happened to me in my adult life (which includes the lack of laziness to study up, leave the cult, etc) I wasn't of proper mind to make such a decision, nor did I have any idea what I was getting into.
I would hardly call my baptism a choice made by a sober, adult mind.
I will grant you that any excited JW teenager is arrogant. I will also put out there for your intellectual consideration that any "go getter" teen is going to be VERY arrogant. It's just part of the maturing process. I give a pass to most arrogant teens because of that.
Teens are also very trusting, so without proper guidance they aren't going to consider every possibility. That is why the baptism of minors by JW's is among their most insidious and disgusting practices in my view.
There is one point that I agree on with you in principle, but I would frame it very differently. I agree that there is a difference when an adult who has never been exposed to the Witnesses agrees to become a JW. It was my experience with those that they in some way were emotionally damaged/fragile and were thus easy prey to the tactics of JW recruiting. Do I think that the majority are intellectually lazy? I think you underestimate the power of a cult in that case, esp when they influence a person to not consider outside sources of information. Arrogant? No. Some are for sure. But many are humble, scared, would rather gnaw their own arm off instead of knocking on a strangers door, and absolutely think they are doing it for Jehovah. That doesn't sound like arrogance to me.
I think though that the people on this board that you are dealing with are giving you good reasons why they reject certain theology, including the Trinity. You have stated that it is a waste of time in your view to discuss/debate the Trinity with non believers on the internet. (which I do agree with in spite of my actually trying to engage you before)
Whether you realize it or not, you are implying that those who have rejected the Trinity are either/or intellectually lazy and arrogant. That is a ridiculous premise that should rejected out of hand.
If a man should be judged not on the color of their skin but on the content of their character, then a person making an argument should be judged, not on the extent of specific education, but on the soundness of their argument and logic. Thus, name dropping in of itself to me is an arrogant cop out to prop up a belief.
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161
Theological Arguments, Human Realities
by AllTimeJeff inas i have sunken to a new low in condescending posts (according to botchtowersociety, who truthfully is an expert on all things bullshit), it did occur to me that discussions, debates, and mud slinging insult matches on this board often have a common root.. let me put out there that i am not an atheist, nor an agnostic.
frankly, i respect your right to believe that god is a trinity.
that he is jesus.
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AllTimeJeff
Sulla, thank you for clarifying yourself. I think that is a big parsing of words on your part, although I am sure I can be accused of the same thing.
I would much rather generalize on theology, ideas, and doctrines than I would people.
The Christian message is more than the Trinity, and for all of our debate on the matter, I do not reject Christianity because of the Trinity. I see the value in 6 books of the Bible specifically; the 4 gospels, Proverbs, and Ecclesiastes.
The other books read by themselves, without trying to see something that isn't in them, reveals more about the people and thinking of their time.
I also want to comment on the reverse of your last statements: on my next comment.... :)
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19
Shredding the Organised to Accomplish Our Ministry book
by scotsman injust read through the 2011 letters to usa boe and the 8 february one on disposing of old wt books/magazine struck me as apparently the co needs to authorise their disposal.
what really intrigued me was that the om book was required to have it's cover removed and the pages "shredded".. was everyone in the congegation asked to shred their personal copies too?.
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AllTimeJeff
JWfacts, if I may ask please, is it your view that this is legit?
No offense, I trust certain posters here. My last official contact with this cult was 2006.
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79
For the board atheists....
by Jack C. inthis is a personal observation and certainly not representative of all atheists.
i enjoy discussions with folks of this persuasion; in general they appear well read and somewhat more educated than many believers.
as a group most atheists cringe and become insensed when discussing the existence of a deity with believers especially fundamentalists.
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AllTimeJeff
To talesin's point....
I think there is a limit to what an atheist can honestly contribute.
Traditionally, most atheists point out very simply that 'god' isn't there.
I can't argue the point.
Faith is can be different from promoted/enforced doctrine however. It can should be individual, and personal.
To me, atheism's main debator is organized religion, and their efforts at explaining and promoting their 'god'.
After that, I see atheism as a philosophy of diminishing returns. I am not an atheist. I believe in personal spirituality, that gives personal meaning, and harms no one.
Atheism has little to no play in that field, (personal spirituality.) Atheism seems to frequently be on the side of such "spiritualists" in their common "foe", organized religion, and enforced worship of a god that is promoted by a leadership with their own personal agenda.
After all of this, to borrow a quote from Terry, 'Your mileage may vary.'
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79
For the board atheists....
by Jack C. inthis is a personal observation and certainly not representative of all atheists.
i enjoy discussions with folks of this persuasion; in general they appear well read and somewhat more educated than many believers.
as a group most atheists cringe and become insensed when discussing the existence of a deity with believers especially fundamentalists.
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AllTimeJeff
Interesting premise.
As an opinion, my view is that an atheist would take what the most commonly used book/tool in his part of the world that is used to "verify" god as the tool to prove that particular god's non-existence.
In the case of the bible, many arguments, (very sound ones imo) have been presented to demonstrate that god doesn't exist as Jehovah, YHWH, Jesus, etc.
I believe these arguments have a place on a board that frequently has transient JW's and former JW's coming and going. These ones need to test out their newly formulated views, be they theist or atheist.
I don't think the source matters as much as the sound reasons given one way or another.
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60
Society tells us to stop asking questions...
by cedars ini was just glancing at the back of the october 15th watchtower and the questions from readers.
the question under discussion is "what should i do when i have a question about something i read in the bible or when i need advice about a personal problem?".
the article goes on to discuss how we should consult the watch tower publications index among the many 'tools' that have been provided by the faithful and discreet slave whenever we have a question that is not directly discussed in the publications.. one statement really caught my eye, because it's the first time i've ever seen the society actually dissuade people from writing in with questions.
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AllTimeJeff
Don't mean to make undue fun of the GB, but this is bullshit. Here is what I think in parody form....
"What should I do when I have a question about something I read in the Bible or when I need advice about a personal problem?"
Dear Lonely, Desperate, Abandoned Dumba$$, (btw, thanks for donating to the Society's Worldwide Wurk)
It used to be that when we really believed we were annointed, going to heaven, part of the 144,000 (ah, the good ol days) that we would really try to answer most questions that appeared to be legitimate to us.
But this is Governing Body 2.1 (Barr and Jaracz are now in heaven. Or not, we don't give a shit.... Splane made us say that...). We have quickly realized that we simply need to do what Barr and Jaracz figured out.
We gotta die on the company dime.
We are very jealous of the Michigan contingent, Sydlik and Schroeder. Those damn bastards walked on water from the frikkin moment they got here. Schroeder could even lose bets to Freddie Franz in bad biblical Hebrew.....
We are especially jealous of Freddie Franz. How many people do you know who walked the earth, dropped out of college, then got to run a religion as a result for 70 freaking years, and then die at 100!!??
Yeah, we got screwed. We thought it would be cool to lie about being annointed. Now, we're f*cked! We got stuck with the bill. Time to leave Brooklyn and flee to the hills.
Do you think we're rambling? No, just some context here doofus. In the Oct 15 WT, we gave ourselves another trap door out when we said " Neither the branch office nor world headquarters is in a position to analyze and answer all such questions that have not been considered in our literature"
Oh SNAP!! That was a good one. Do you know what that means? It means that we can officially not give a shit. It means we don't have to supply you spiritual food because we are busy supplying you spiritual food!
We are AWESOME!! And you all will still follow us.
So remember, those WT bound volumes are great, except the parts that we change every 10 years. Like what constitutes a generation, or if oral sex is ok.
Don't worry though, we're Governing Body 2.1. All we want to do is die on the company dime.
Btw, we are actively recruiting for Governing Body 3.0. All you need to do is claim to be annointed and be our secretarial bitches for 20 years until we die and spend up what is left of the WTBTS fortune.
Then the youngin's can take over!
We love you all! Keep sending us your dimes!
Deep love (of your $$$)
The Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses, v2.1
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131
ATJeff Answers Letters from JW Readers
by AllTimeJeff ini didn't want to hijack billy x's attempt at hijacking another thread directed to our apostate terrorist, reinna.
this is a parady that only ex jw's could possibly appreciate.
whether you appreciate my macabre sense of humor is entirely another matter.
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AllTimeJeff
Sorry, couldn't help this one... Its from the thread "Society tells us to stop asking questions"
"What should I do when I have a question about something I read in the Bible or when I need advice about a personal problem?"
Dear Lonely, Desperate, Abandoned Dumba$$, (btw, thanks for donating to the Society's Worldwide Wurk)
It used to be that when we really believed we were annointed, going to heaven, part of the 144,000 (ah, the good ol days) that we would really try to answer most questions that appeared to be legitimate to us.
But this is Governing Body 2.1 (Barr and Jaracz are now in heaven. Or not, we don't give a shit.... Splane made us say that...). We have quickly realized that we simply need to do what Barr and Jaracz figured out.
We gotta die on the company dime.
We are very jealous of the Michigan contingent, Sydlik and Schroeder. Those damn bastards walked on water from the frikkin moment they got here. Schroeder could even lose bets to Freddie Franz in bad biblical Hebrew.....
We are especially jealous of Freddie Franz. How many people do you know who walked the earth, dropped out of college, then got to run a religion as a result for 70 freaking years, and then die at 100!!??
Yeah, we got screwed. We thought it would be cool to lie about being annointed. Now, we're f*cked! We got stuck with the bill. Time to leave Brooklyn and flee to the hills.
Do you think we're rambling? No, just some context here doofus. In the Oct 15 WT, we gave ourselves another trap door out when we said " Neither the branch office nor world headquarters is in a position to analyze and answer all such questions that have not been considered in our literature"
Oh SNAP!! That was a good one. Do you know what that means? It means that we can officially not give a shit. It means we don't have to supply you spiritual food because we are busy supplying you spiritual food!
We are AWESOME!! And you all will still follow us.
So remember, those WT bound volumes are great, except the parts that we change every 10 years. Like what constitutes a generation, or if oral sex is ok.
Don't worry though, we're Governing Body 2.1. All we want to do is die on the company dime.
Btw, we are actively recruiting for Governing Body 3.0. All you need to do is claim to be annointed and be our secretarial bitches for 20 years until we die and spend up what is left of the WTBTS fortune.
Then the youngin's can take over!
We love you all! Keep sending us your dimes!
Deep love (of your $$$)
The Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses, v2.1