one thing that i have always noticed even when i was a jw is that the jw org has lots and lots and lots of rules for allsorts of stupid petty rules which make no difference.
when you read the bible you see how they are clearly in the wrong here and are acting like the pharisees themselves, who imposed so much pressure on others to conform to the law.
am i missing something here!?!?
Hey eggnog, do you have your time in for the month yet?
The Governing Body most resembles the Pharisees that Jesus condemned. Rules that change, oral rules that can be given by higher ups, numerous nuances to prophecies and credences.
I am guessing you haven't spent any time at Bethel, so i will cut you a break. You wouldn't be the first person to read fiction and not get it.
i was hit by this topic after doing reaserch in the old testament.
there are eleven different sexual relationships that are directly condemed in the old testament.
strikingly your daugher and your niece are not listed.
Is it ok to question using the bible as a guide to living in the 21st century thanks to stories like this?
I read the Old Testament for the first time when I was 10. The last time, when I was studying at Gilead. Let me tell you, in 2005, stories like this are gross, no matter which bible you use or what tradition you come from.
"i contend that we are both atheists.
i just believe in one fewer god than you do.
when you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why i dismiss yours.
I acknowledge that many believers in god are powerfully affected if they believe that they have had an experience or communication with "god".
Sadly, such experiences cannot be verified, though the behavior of the believer may be altered.
What can be verified are existential items such as love and purpose.
What I think many theists do possess that they don't use is what you say Caliber: What a person can validatefor themselves.
What they lack is the ability to draw the line between what they have proved to themselves and what they can prove to others.
If a person chooses to believe, and allows that to affect them in many positive ways, they only need to stop there and allow others to find their own way.
Unfortunately, it seems like many theists get a bad "Joan of Arc" syndrome, where they fight for "god" on her behalf. If you are going to fight for god, can we at least get a memo?
As a former JW who went way way way up the company ladder, I can tell you that there are few things that will get a person so heady, so intoxicated, as to believe that what they do in life is from the one true god. It causes a person to not consider anything else, and to make unhealthy decisions. In short, it is a dangerous way to live life.
Now, if a JW (for example) were allowed to decide to worship Jehovah, and even keep private beliefs about what will happen to non-believers, that is their right.
Where it get's dangerous is the activities promoted, not the beliefs.
Can one believe and not act on their world? Of course, and this is where it gets frustrating for theists, because the world as it is is VERY different from the "map" they have been given. (such as the bible or other sources of religious dogma)
"i contend that we are both atheists.
i just believe in one fewer god than you do.
when you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why i dismiss yours.
Isn't this thread a way to make a point to Christians that their view of religion and spirituality isn't the only one out there?
"i contend that we are both atheists.
i just believe in one fewer god than you do.
when you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why i dismiss yours.
From Caliber:
So a basic definition of spirituality is the quality of one’s sensitivity to the things of the spirit. And what are these things of the spirit? These are those that cannot be directly perceived by our senses but whose effects can be deduced or inferred by our observations, like love, justice, peace, etc.
So the basic meaning of spirituality is that it is a term which encompasses everything that we cannot see directly with our eyes, directly perceive by the other senses and know by our mere reason. That is spirituality in its basic meaning
On first read, I have some issues with that definition of spirituality. I think first of all that it allows for one to continue to believe things that cannot be perceived.
Perception is different from faith. I don't need Jesus to come down to the heavens to tell me that the tender emotions, esp love, is very good and healthy. I don't need Zeus or Buddha to help me to see that a purpose in life is valuable, healthy, and necessary.
Faith is believing that love and purpose come from Jesus or Buddha, and that they caused these things as their specific religious traditions teach.
Perception is the acknowledgment that love and purpose, while not tangible phyiscally, are realities of the human experience. Perception also teaches us that love and purpose do not need to be linked to religion or a god, that atheists and agnostics also enjoy these things without a religious truth behind it.
To be sensitive is to be educated and aware. If one is unwilling to consider the evidence, it doesn't change the evidence. It only tells on the person unwilling to consider it.
"i contend that we are both atheists.
i just believe in one fewer god than you do.
when you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why i dismiss yours.
Personal spirituality (i.e. knowing who you are and discovering your purpose in life) is more important than figuring out the answer to a question that can't be proven.
What does one get out of believing in God? Purpose in life, that their existence is not in vain.
Does it ever occur to theists that atheists have that figured out already, and they didn't need god/religion to help them? That they did this on their own?
This question is a math problem that excludes about 5 other continents.
The real "baby" is your purpose in life. However you choose to fill that need (call it spiritual or whatever) is what you should do. The bathwater that should be thrown out is the entrenched positions that aren't willing to learn anything.
"I have it figured out! I can stop learning! I can stop understanding other people!" If you ever wonder why the occasional loudmouth theist pisses me off, that last statement is it in a nutshell, the insistence that there is one right way for all people, one truth, one true god. And the only person not involved in the discussion? The one true god. Silence.
Having said that, I don't find it particularly uplifting for two sides to argue about this. Why? Because while there is utility in working this out for yourself via debates (lord knows I did) I would be remiss not to point out that this is not an "either/or" scenario. But you would have to open up your eyes and be honest to acknowledge that. You would have to be open that your purpose in life, that your "spirituality" is not linked to either believing or not believing.
consider some of the other twisted things used to mislead gods people today.
on occasion opposers will question the various teachings that jehovahs people hold in common.
often this becomes a debate about words, just as it was in the first century.
Don't worry, if they got called on it, an explanation will appear in the footnote of a Study WT saying that they didn't mean miind control, that it is something else, that you should follow the FD slave anyway, and that they were right then, they are right now, and obey or else.
please review my letter to the irs commissioner to establish a process for revoking the tax exempt status of dangerous cults and write comments about how to improve it.. rough draft of letter.
mr. douglas h. shulman .
commissioner.
With all respect, the IRS is not going to take away JW's tax exempt status. The letter from one citizen who could potentially be framed as a disgruntled former member will do little to nothing.
If the letter makes you feel better, and you want to be on the record though, that is what being a citizen is all about! Just be realistic about the outcome.
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topgodapexspiritual persons (eg paul)middleatheists, agnostics, secularistsbottomreligionists (eg saul)seemingly in scripture the only persons jesus repeatedly tore into were the religionists (pharisees and sanhedrin or governing body).
it seems he gave the romans (secularists) scant attention, and chose to eat with the likes of prostitutes and presumably also lgbt persons..
Hi Phizzy. I grow in my spirituality by learning and being honest with myself. I am not afraid to read or consider other points of view. I think that a growing spirituality involves more than "getting closer to god". I think it has everything to do with improving as a person and finding your purpose in life. With developing a philosphy that is both solid, yet allows for learning and growth.
I think that if "spirituality" causes you to look down on people, to rule people out, to give up on people, so that you can be right or better, than you go backwards and not forwards.
Being a spiritual person is not about finding a group of people who agrees with you so that you can think your group is right and others are wrong. It's about being a light in the world to everyone, to be yourself while allowing others to be themselves.
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topgodapexspiritual persons (eg paul)middleatheists, agnostics, secularistsbottomreligionists (eg saul)seemingly in scripture the only persons jesus repeatedly tore into were the religionists (pharisees and sanhedrin or governing body).
it seems he gave the romans (secularists) scant attention, and chose to eat with the likes of prostitutes and presumably also lgbt persons..
Wasn't expecting to find that old post up here. Thanks for finding that BTS.
My thoughts on this are simple: I think that you limit yourself when you go all in to the group think of a church/religion. I think that there are more evolved ways to view god and spirituality. When you move past group think, you allow yourself to grow.
The 4 Stages link really does describe to me in a general way why I feel that way.
